Ep69. Kaila Love: A.I. & Hip Hop

[00:00:00] Kaila: So I really see AI as something that you want to use as a tool to minimize those mundane tasks or those tasks where a lot of times as an independent artist, you have a very small budget and you have a team, usually of one, and that’s yourself. And so you’re your own like email marketer and your own social media strategist and your own producer, mixer, master, and all of these things.

[00:00:23] Kaila: And so I see AI as a way of helping expand your team so that you’re able to focus on the things that you really love.

[00:00:31] Helen: Kaila Love is a hip hop artist, entrepreneur, and AI automation specialist who has been breaking barriers since she started rapping at age 14. Born and raised in the Bay Area by her great grandmother, Kaila used music as a vehicle to overcome challenges, becoming the first in her family to graduate college when she received her bachelor’s in political science from UC Berkeley.

[00:00:56] Helen: As an early adopter of blockchain technology, Kaila has been investing in crypto since 2017. In March 2021, she made history as one of the first female rappers to sell her music as an NFT. This pioneering move led her to author the book, NFTs For Music, establishing her as a thought leader at the intersection of music and emerging technology.

[00:01:22] Helen: I met Kaila at Midwest Con after her keynote presentation titled Rhythm and Bites. And you’re in for a treat today as we dive into Kaila’s go-getter and innovative mind. She’s a forward thinker who’s vocal about the potential of AI to revolutionize the music industry and propel artists beyond streaming into new opportunities to connect with and provide experiences to their fans.

[00:01:47] Helen: In our conversation, you’ll hear Kaila’s journey from creating her first AI bot to developing AI education programs to empower musicians. We explore her views on the future of music NFTs, the ethical considerations of AI in creative industries, and her vision for new revenue models that benefit artists in the AI era.

[00:02:11] Helen: From hip hop to high tech, join us as Kaila shares her passion for music, technology, and humanity, all the while maintaining her roots as the AI homegirl. Enjoy.

[00:02:31] Helen: Welcome to Creativity Squared. Discover how creatives are collaborating with artificial intelligence in your inbox, on YouTube, and on your preferred podcast platform. Hi, I’m Helen Todd, your host, and I’m so excited to have you join the weekly conversations I’m having with amazing pioneers. The intention of these conversations is to ignite our collective imagination at the intersection of AI and creativity to envision a world where artists thrive.

[00:03:06] Helen: Kaila Love, welcome to Creativity Squared.

[00:03:10] Kaila: Oh, thank you so much, Helen. I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:13] Helen: Yeah, I’m so excited to have you on the show too. Kaila and I met at Midwest Con where she did an amazing presentation called Rhythm and Bites. And it was so awesome to hear. I immediately was like, “Oh, I have to bring you on to the show.”

[00:03:27] Helen: But for those who are meeting you for the first time, can you tell us who you are, what you do and a bit of your origin story?

[00:03:34] Kaila: Oh, for sure. Well, my name is Kaila Love and that’s spelled K A I L A, which is very on brand because, my friends know me as the AI homegirl, and my, I always joke that all I ever wanted to do was be a rapper.

[00:03:49] Kaila: And that has taken me on a road to doing so many other things because I realized if anybody was going to hear my music, then I had to learn the business side of the music industry and copyrights and how to register your music properly to receive royalties. And naturally that led on down some other paths like digital marketing and social media content.

[00:04:12] Kaila: I’ve always been super passionate about tech from a young age. And so that kind of continued a natural progression. I became one of the first female rappers to sell her music as an NFT. Naturally, when AI has become more of a mainstream conversation, it’s something that I’ve hopped on right away. And so that is the culmination of me, Kaila Love, music, tech, humanity.

[00:04:36] Helen: I love that so much. The mixing of rap with technology and how you express it. It’s so cool. And I guess like going back, how did your AI journey begin?

[00:04:47] Kaila: Well, a couple of years ago I paid a good amount to be in a program and learn how to build basically a music marketing machine.

[00:04:56] Kaila: So it’s kind of combining Facebook ads and, you know, not generative AI, but AI in terms of algorithmic, you know, programs AI. And so that’s when I actually learned to build my first bot. And I naturally was just inclined. I loved like conditional workflows and kind of decision trees and whatnot. And thinking about the type of journey that I could take my fans on and found it as just another layer of creativity and that there’s the creativity that musicians bring to music, the music itself.

[00:05:26] Kaila: And then of course, to all of the satellite assets, like the cover art or the music videos. But then I started to discover this kind of additional layer of creativity and marketing and the ways that we can curate fan experiences. And so that’s really when generative AI came about. You know, it was obviously super exciting when Open AI released Chat GPT and all the things that you could do from now being able to upload lyrics and have it analyzed for like the sentiment of lyrics or helping you create a playlist or helping you create copy for an email blast campaign or an Instagram post.

[00:06:03] Kaila: And so that was kind of one of my first products. Like, it was February of the year before last, I believe what, 2022 that I had released my, like a course on AI for musicians, showing them how to use Chat GPT. So that was kind of like the first introduction of trying to make it accessible.

[00:06:21] Kaila: That’s always been kind of my thing where, you know, I would put out a goal and it’s funny cause my company is Goal Getters and it’s like, okay, put out a goal, then you get the goal and then you teach others how to get the goals. So it’d be like, I got my music and NBA 2k and ESPN. And then I did like a whole masterclass on sync licensing, or different accomplishments.

[00:06:40] Kaila: And then I’d go. And so I felt like AI just opened up a whole new wave of possibilities for artists and creatives and entrepreneurs. And so that’s kind of where I started providing that type of education to the community.

[00:06:53] Helen: That’s amazing. And I also love that your actual music you use as a vehicle to teach people about AI too.

[00:07:00] Helen: So I do want [you] to kind of tell us how you incorporate, I guess the tech side of things into your actual lyrics as well too.

[00:07:09] Kaila: Yeah, because sometimes I feel like when we have these catchy, topics and these buzzwords like “AI” or “crypto,” but like a lot of artists, they just kind of want to hop on that bandwagon, but don’t really know what it means.

[00:07:20] Kaila: And they make the same music, but then they just like plug in the keywords and then it’s not really teaching people. So, and at the same time, I don’t want to create music where it’s just like, “this is what a blockchain is. And this is what a bot -” you know what I’m saying? Cause then it can get corny real quick.

[00:07:34] Kaila: So it’s really about like finding unique ways to like, talk about technology while kind of speaking to the human experience. So for example, like my, it is a song and my book AI, the Bootleg Brain, and you know, a bootleg is like, you know, the guy at the flea market selling the DVDs, right. Of like the bootlegs, okay?

[00:07:52] Kaila: And so it’s kinda like the idea that AI and machine learning algorithms are based on a pattern of neural networks, which is what we find in our anatomy, in the human brain. And so that’s kind of the idea is that AI is trying to be like you, it’s trying to mimic the ultimate technology that we already have.

[00:08:13] Kaila: And so I’ll like make raps, like, almost like mocking AI like: “You want to be like me. No other is to know, get deep, deep, deep into my psyche. I see you steady, tryna figure out my motivation, what drives me. Crack my code, tryna know all the forces that guide me, so you can override me. You wanna boot like my brain, hack into my domain, copy all that it contains, go back and replicate, test it out until you can’t, get a lower failure rate, then it’s time to activate. You can get close, but it’s still not quite. That’ll probably change in the age of AGI. For now, I’ma go ahead and push it to the side, making a picture of a mermaid on a water slide.”

[00:08:58] Kaila: So just kinda like speaking to ways that, you know, AI is like, “Oh, it’s trying to be like my brain. Oh, what’s AGI?” Maybe somebody will look into that, you know? And so kind of just planting those seeds where if you learn the lyrics, then you’ll learn about the technology.

[00:09:14] Helen: I love everything about your answer. You’re not our first musician, but you’re our first person who has sung live on the show. So thank you. That is such a treat to have you on today. And also to plug your book, I was lucky enough to pick one up and for our audio only listeners, you can see it on the dedicated blog post, but I have a, I’m a proud owner of the copy of the book; and tell us about, the cover art, cause you look – like you look fabulous right now on screen, but this is such a cool visual that you have. So tell us a little bit about this too.

[00:09:51] Kaila: Sure. So yes, this is an AI generated image that uses a face swap technique. And so, the cover, you know, you, I wanted to really show the essence of the human face, because I feel like a lot of these AI books and covers, [are just like] robotic, so it’s definitely tech elements in there, but again, just paying homage to the human brain, because a lot of times, or in the book, I talk about the parallels between AI systems and the human brain, but also, if you notice on the cover, the brain is kind of made up of like this circuitry that also resembles a tree.

[00:10:24] Kaila: And so while AI is mimicking the human brain, the patterns that we see, there’s also a lot of parallels to those patterns that we can find in nature, like, you know, through the trees and the branches and the roots and our lungs. Also, you know, if you look at it microscopically or like rivers, you know, you can see all of these branches going off.

[00:10:43] Kaila: And so, that’s really what I wanted to capture in that cover. And it took… you know, I know people think like, Oh, you’re just going to put in a prompt and you just like get something out. But it’s like, no, there’s so many different aspects from the generative field to getting the different dimensions to making sure that tree pattern was correct.

[00:11:03] Kaila: There was like generations and in-painting just for that, to the face swap and making sure you have the correct face profile to even feed into the system. And so, I’m pretty happy with how it came out. And, I thank you for your kind words about the cover.

[00:11:19] Helen: Yeah, it’s super cool and you, it’s great to hear kind of your creative process a little bit on how you generated this.

[00:11:30] Helen: Can you walk us through your music and how, and you kind of mentioned with the lyrics, like Chat GPT can analyze lyrics and stuff, but how do you use AI as part of your creative process? And then I’m also kind of curious, have you played with, like the tools like Suno and Udio, or yeah, I’m curious, walk us through how you play with the AI tools and your approach to them and your creative process.

[00:11:56] Kaila: Oh, man. Well, I don’t use AI to write any of my lyrics or anything like that because, I’m simply better. Maybe one day it’ll compete with me. And also I don’t want to feed all of my lyrics and then it’s just being trained on my stuff. So I kind of always say like, “I don’t want any one AI to have a monopoly on me.”

[00:12:12] Kaila: So I’ll like sprinkle Claude a little something. I’ll sprinkle Chat GPT, sprinkle Gemini. So that it’s just like spread across the board, you know. Sometimes the most that I might do is ask for like rhymes or phrases, kind of similar to when I go on something like rhymezone.com to complete like a rhyme scheme.

[00:12:31] Kaila: But I, have tested it where I’ve fed it, you know, maybe like one verse and been like, “hey, write the second verse.” And then compare that verse to the second verse that I actually wrote. And it’s just not, and it’s just not there. The rhyme schemes are still very elementary. And it’s interesting because when it comes to certain genres of music, then it’s like, I don’t know if it’s just that it doesn’t have enough of the training data, but I’ve not been impressed at all with what’s been generated.

[00:13:01] Kaila: I mean, I’ve used those tools, Suno and Udio, because I just test out a bunch of tools all the time in all different mediums, but I wouldn’t ever see that as like a viable replacement for what I do. And I love what I do, and what I do serves a purpose of expression. So that’s not something that’s going to be replaced with AI.

[00:13:20] Kaila: Like these tools can get great, but it’s… I did this for a reason. I started for a reason. And that is not going to change just because we have this type of accessibility. So I feel like, you know, those things are still sacred to me. Those things I think still matter, even with my cover art, I haven’t been using it that much.

[00:13:35] Kaila: Although, you know, I’m not opposed to it. But I think it’s still like, not just taking a prompt and then thinking that you’re going to get the final version. It’s still a lot more intentional. I made a cover art for a friend, but it was like, you know, creating six different images and still doing a lot of post editing to get it to the vision that I want.

[00:13:56] Kaila: And I think that those things are still important and that they, there’s that role of human discernment that is still very much alive.

[00:14:05] Helen: And I guess, since you kind of learned about the AI bots, and then that’s, you speak about it, you have your book, and you help empower creatives… What is the message or like one of the key messages that you want to make sure that other creatives know when it comes to AI?

[00:14:27] Kaila: Oh, man, that AI is really a tool and it can, really help us in a lot of different ways from, you know, creating professional imagery to creating professional copy, or just getting advice, helping summarize a business plan, helping us come up with a framework and really lay it out or a lesson plan. And so I really see AI is something that you want to use as a tool to minimize those mundane tasks or those tasks where a lot of times as an independent artist, you have a very small budget.

[00:14:57] Kaila: And you have a team usually of one, and that’s yourself. And so you’re your own like email marketer and your own social media strategist and your own producer, mixer, master, and all of these things. And so I see AI as a way of helping expand your team so that you’re able to focus on the things that you really love.

[00:15:15] Kaila: You know, I know like I think about educators. I talk about it in my book. I remember my friend, she came over to my house and I was like, “why don’t you stay?” And she said, “oh no, girl, I got to go write these lesson plans. I got to go teach this hip hop camp tomorrow.” And I said, “well, girl, you know, we got Chat GPT now.”

[00:15:31] Kaila: And she was like, “Oh, I don’t know about that stuff.” Right? And I just sat down and I was like, “well, what, do you have to teach tomorrow? Like how many students is it? What do you want to talk about? What do you, what are you trying to get them to learn? What’s the activity?” And I just, as she was talking, I was typing.

[00:15:46] Kaila: And a few minutes later, we had these two full blown lesson plans. And she was like, wow, this is really good. I mean, I can tweak a couple things, but basically she was like, that was going to take me the rest of the night to come up with on my own. And now I’m going to go home and work on my creative projects or my script instead.

[00:16:03] Kaila: And at the end of the day, she’s still the one in the classroom delivering this curriculum, you know, and it’s still very similar to something that she would have came up with. It just would have taken her so many more hours and those hours were better spent, you know, developing her own artistry, helping her prepare for the next day to show up for those kids fully.

[00:16:22] Kaila: So that’s the way that I really see AI being a huge benefit.

[00:16:26] Helen: And I think especially with the, next wave of the agents, like right now, gen AI, it’s like you do prompts, you get copy or the task completed within the LLMs, but then you copy and paste and put it elsewhere. So there’s like, completing the beginning of a task, but not the full follow through.

[00:16:44] Helen: And then this next wave of agents, they’ll actually do the tasks and complete them through the full follow through. So that’s when you start really expanding your team with AI agents that do stuff, on your behalf. So I’m very curious how that will play out. But you also teach, so tell us a little bit about some of the different programs and services that you offer.

[00:17:08] Kaila: Oh man, it’s always, sometimes I’m like, “I need to have a whole list because I even forget what I offer.” I’m like the easier question, a lot of times when I go to client and be like, “what do you need? Let’s start there.” Then it’ll all starts spinning. But I mean, that’s kind of the whole idea, is that, you know, we’re not just here to create a bunch of cool tools and just have this huge toolkit.

[00:17:30] Kaila: Although, you know, I love that stuff, but it’s really about solving problems. It’s really [about] looking at, what is your workflow and where do you have, kind of, holes in your workflow where things can be optimized, where things can be automated, where your time is just better spent doing more important tasks so that we do have more time to do face to face work with our clients or provide more value and give that human experience.

[00:17:52] Kaila: And so, right now I’ve been doing kind of AI consulting in an informal capacity just because a lot of times people be like, “oh, Kaila would probably know that. Let me just hit her up,” a type of thing. But, I do feel that in the same way that websites were the big thing at the early 2000’s and everybody needed to now get their own website.

[00:18:12] Kaila: And then there was a point where they kind of all look the same and we didn’t really have advanced CSS and things like that. And that’s where now people would start to differentiate themselves and their brand. We’re going to see the same thing with AI agents or AI bots. And I think we’ve already seen it with some major companies.

[00:18:29] Kaila: I can’t remember, like one of the car dealerships and one of the airlines and their AI bots started giving excessive refunds or whatnot. And so I think that’s where building, you know, responsibly built AI, understanding what, you know, reliable and predictable AI is and being able to put safeguards in place when you’re developing an agent.

[00:18:50] Kaila: And I think that a lot of times people in the future, they’re going to get fed up with like every bot sounding the same. And I think there’s going to just be a huge need for AI agents that can capture a unique personality and brand voice. And that’s what I specialize in.

[00:19:04] Helen: Very cool. And since you kind of did a throwback, when you were answering that question, it reminded me in your presentation, you did a really great, like look back on how technology has pushed the music industry.

[00:19:20] Helen: And I was wondering if you could share with our listeners and viewers that framing, cause I thought you teed that up really well in your presentation.

[00:19:27] Kaila: Oh, wow. Yes. Thank you. Well, yes, I It kind of started with talking about music technology beginning with Thomas Edison’s phonograph in 1877 and how when you see every iteration of every piece of technology that came after that, we saw that it actually built on that.

[00:19:47] Kaila: And the reason that it evolved is because there was some type of limitation. And I said, “when there is a limitation, that means there’s room for innovation.” And that’s exactly what happens. It’s the natural progression. And the limitation with Thomas Edison’s photograph was that it would be, music would be recorded and then played back on these wax cylinders, about the size of a soda can.

[00:20:06] Kaila: And as you can imagine, you know, you’d have to store these cylinders. And if you had any type of physical damage, then it’s going to degrade the quality of the recording. And we could see how eventually somebody has a huge library of music, how that could be difficult. Right? And so this guy Berliner, he came along and he said, “well, I really liked that idea, but what if we did it on flat discs?”

[00:20:26] Kaila: Right? So we just saw like this one kind of improvement that was massive that helped, you know, solve for the limitation from the phonograph. And then we, we kept seeing that over and over even when we got to the Walkman. And then when we get to the CD player and we get to the digital age, eventually to getting to Spotify. And Spotify was solving the problem of music piracy with LimeWire and Napster, BearShare, these type of peer to peer file sharing systems.

[00:20:51] Kaila: And now, the limitation that we see with Spotify is a lot of artists are saying that we’re not being monetized properly, that, you know, music gets taken down and there’s no recourse for it. There’s just so many different aspects that are not favorable for independent artists that use the streaming model.

[00:21:07] Kaila: It’s just not profitable for them. And so then we had kind of like the rise of blockchain and how that can serve artists and help them create unique experiences for their fans by these digital assets that they can own and package. And so now I just see AI as the next kind of evolution to that as well.

[00:21:25] Helen: And I would love to double click a little bit into your, NFT, especially since you’re one of the first, if not the first, like rapper who released music with NFTs. I back in March at South by Southwest, I saw a really great presentation where it was another musician who was on stage and she moved off of the Spotify platforms and is releasing her music on NFTs and how she described it on stage was, she had a great line of like, “I’m creating music for humans and not algorithms.”

[00:22:01] Helen: And she felt very constrained with like the music industry of saying like, Well, the algorithm, almost like the Netflix of movies of like, well, it needs to be this at this point, because this is what the algorithms tell us. So she moved off and releases her music on NFTs. And that was the first time I had really heard of music as NFTs being released that way, but she found massive community and is really happy with it.

[00:22:26] Helen: So I’m like really curious, like, are you on Spotify and, do the NFTs and how did you get in it? And how do you find it? And I guess, this is a lot in a question, for those who might be hearing about music as NFTs for the first time, like me back in March, kind of, can you give us a glimpse of like the lay of the land, I guess?

[00:22:46] Kaila: Yeah, absolutely. I’m like, do you… was that artist Latasha? I think we were, I was there also at South by Southwest, so we probably actually crossed paths at some point there.

[00:22:57] Helen: Oh, that’s so funny. It was, no, that wasn’t the name, but I’ll, find it and put it in the show notes, afterwards. But yeah, let’s hear, your story.

[00:23:07] Kaila: Yeah. So when it comes to music NFTs, something that was unique about it is, if you look at Spotify, one of the limitations is that you can only sell, well, you’re not even selling your, just have one thing available, which is the final mix and master of that song. The one that’s ready to go for the world.

[00:23:22] Kaila: Whereas, NFTs or any kind of direct to consumer, right? That’s really what the heart of an NFT is the fact that you’re packaging something and giving it to somebody direct. And I think that a lot of artists and consumers are not ready for that. So I don’t do like, you know, just slinging my music as NFTs now, but I built my platform, GoGetters.AI.

[00:23:45] Kaila: And I’ve built a whole system of curating those bundles and services and experiences to do direct to consumer sales. And that’s what I teach and get other artists on my platforms and teach them how to do that strategy. So for example, my first NFT, it was basically a folder. And then it’s like everything that’s inside that folder.

[00:24:05] Kaila: So it’s like you got a, this one was for a single called I did. So I included the wav file. I included the MP3. I included the lyric sheets. I included the cover art and I included like a voice memo, like congratulations on being the owner of my Genesis mint NFT. And so it was just like, you, get this whole package, right?

[00:24:23] Kaila: And so the idea is, the technology is evolving, but the principles are the same. And I actually wrote a book called NFTs For Music, where I talk about Nipsey Hussle’s $100 and $1,000 mixtapes, like being able to take something and put a premium price on it and having a very specific consumer in mind.

[00:24:41] Kaila: Cause I think it was like Jay Z that ended up buying a hundred copies of that, right? Or Raekwon’s purple mixtape, the purple tape. It was a purple cased cassette and it became known as the purple tape on the streets. And it was just like this unique kind of branding that was able to take off. And then, you know, the idea of exclusivity, the idea of creating unique experiences, that is all the underlying principles that were being applied before we even had like CDs, you know, in some cases.

[00:25:14] Kaila: So, that’s what I want people to more so focus on, is don’t let the technology kind of take you away. And then it becomes this big thing. It’s always about what is the principle, what are the underlying fundamentals and really the experience that you want to give. And I love what you had said, Helen, about that artist thing.

[00:25:31] Kaila: You know, I’m making music for humans, not algorithms. And I think so often, because we’re constantly trying to please the algorithm, whether it’s like getting that perfect three second hook so somebody will even watch the rest of our reel or it’ll be suggested to others or trying to break the algorithm on Spotify, so we can get on that playlist and then, you know, let it do its thing and suggest it to other people.

[00:25:52] Kaila: But, you really also want to not depend on an algorithm for your destiny and your success. And that means that you have to do some of the groundwork to tap in and be like, “well, why am I doing this?

[00:26:04] Kaila: And who am I doing it for? Who do I want to serve? And what do I want them to feel and experience as a result of what I’m doing?” And there’s, you know, that’s the core question that a lot of people are not taking the time to discover. The technology is just the vessel to deliver that. And so that’s where I think sometimes it’s like going back to the basics and not getting too caught up in the tech, because it can all work if you’re kind of still looking at those, underlying principles there.

[00:26:33] Helen: And as we’re recording this, well, first, thank you for that great overview. And, as we’re recording this interview, there’s at least headlines I’ve been seeing in the last couple of weeks on, you know, The Bored Apes, NFTs, some of the visual art, like how much they’ve dropped in value and stuff. And you see like the headlines as you know, our lovely media always does like NFTs are dead and all of this, but it sounds like, from what you’re saying that it’s just like… the early, early adopters got on and we’re still in like, “what is that?”

[00:27:02] Helen: The user adoption, like early adopters trough and then more. Do you still, I feel this way, but it seems like NFTs aren’t going anywhere and that they’ll pick back up. Is that kind of how you view it or how do you see the future of NFTs?

[00:27:22] Kaila: NFTs, particularly in the creative space is one case study of the underlying technology, which is blockchain. And I think that there’s going to be a role for blockchain to play that’s greater than ever. I think that, you know, even with Bank of America, they recently had an outage where everybody’s accounts were showing up as zero.

[00:27:38] Kaila: And it’s like, Oh, you know, the, look at the power that we give to these banking systems, the whole idea. But a lot of, at the same time, the flip side of that is a lot of people are not ready or responsible enough to become their own bank. Or a lot of times it’s like, “Oh, I can’t remember my seed phrase.

[00:27:53] Kaila: And if I can’t remember it, then I could lose my entire fortune.” Well, you know, with no recourse. And so it’s kind of like that’s where the balance comes in because then you start replicating the systems that we have that we’re trying to like go up against, but now on the blockchain. So I think that still the blockchain and blockchain technology is prevalent.

[00:28:12] Kaila: I think that the role of NFTs is going to have to evolve. And I think that with AI, because now you can generate really anything. I mean, there’s some very sophisticated deep fakes out there. You know, one of the major issues with NFT is that, it’s legalized theft. It gives no credit. And so you have millions of data points of artists works that have no idea that they’re, you know, artwork, their creatives, were stripped off the internet and fed to these algorithms and now are producing and reproducing works that were inspired by them and they get no credit.

[00:28:48] Kaila: And so that is, really difficult. And I think that there’s going to have to be something that evolves, but the law is always trying to keep up with technology. So nobody really is sure exactly what to do. Open AI, of course, is going to fight against it because their entire business model is built around having enough data.

[00:29:05] Kaila: And if they didn’t have copywritten data in their data set, then their models would suffer significantly. So, it’s kind of like a long winded answer, I guess, kind of getting off track. But, yeah, I think that there’s just a lot of new challenges that will be presented and that it can be an opportunity for blockchain in the end to play a role because the whole idea of the NFT is like this non-fungible token.

[00:29:30] Kaila: It’s the idea that it’s authenticated. And so as more and more information and, you know, text, voice, image, data, all of this stuff can be easily reproduced. We’re going to need a new way of authenticating that to know who it really came from. And blockchain could play a role in that, including NFTs.

[00:29:49] Helen: I appreciate your answer. So thank you. And just to add a little color to that too, the four C’s for responsible AI related to artists and creativity is artists need to get credit, they need to have control, They need to have compensation. And there needs to be a transparency as well. And we’re not seeing that right now.

[00:30:15] Helen: So, and in addition to blockchain, there’s also a whole movement with the content authenticity initiative. It’s not, it can be blockchain backed, but it’s, it’s encrypted metadata into whatever the file is that follows it across the internet to, you know, to deal with the authenticity, authentication issue too.

[00:30:36] Helen: So there are some solutions out there as well. But I’m always curious, you know, the lay of the land where NFTs are right now and in the creative landscape. And one other shout out since we met at Midwest Con, Rob Richardson, who runs that, is an amazing person here in Cincinnati, and we all champion responsible AI.

[00:31:02] Helen: So it’s great to hear you, say that as part of, the interview as well too. Is there anything else that you would like react or add, to the conversation about, you know, the responsible AI related to artists and creatives.

[00:31:19] Kaila: Oh man. It’s just one of those things that is, it’s very difficult because on one hand, you know, I’m aware of the way that data is scraped to train these models.

[00:31:30] Kaila: And on the other hand, it’s like, Oh man, well, I also don’t see AI going anywhere, right? And so part of it feels like, well, I want to be one of the ones that’s building it, that’s testing it, that’s making sure that, there’s safeguards in place, that’s testing for all, like, the biases.

[00:31:52] Kaila: And that’s one of the things that I talk about in my book, A.I. the Bootleg Brain, is that all of the things that we fight against in this world, all the racism and the sexism, all the isms, you know, they can get coded into AI because at the end of the day, this is not just something that’s operating on its own. There’s a human behind it, and all of the flaws that humans have can be translated and are translated into technology systems.

[00:32:19] Kaila: You know, there’s an accident, documentary on Netflix about it, Coded Bias. And so I think that it’s just something that’s really important to keep in mind, but it’s also why I feel so passionate about making sure that people who have traditionally been left on the margins are part of, are centralized in this space and the development of this technology.

[00:32:41] Helen: I fully, fully support everything that you just shared. And, I guess one thing I’m also curious about that, you know, in doing a bunch of these interviews, I think there’s a difference between like saying, go to Chat GPT and say, you know, shoot off music lyrics or create an image versus building a custom model built on only your own work where you start sparring more, more or less with yourself or like your whole corpus of work.

[00:33:15] Helen: That seems like there’s more agency. If AI is only working on works, that’s been trained on your own stuff, to then spar with yourself. And I was curious, like what your thoughts are on that and as you play and test things, if you’ve played in this sandbox already?

[00:33:34] Kaila: Oh, well, yeah. I’ve definitely thought about this because I, one of my predictions or something that I can see in the future is that, you know, authors or painters or songwriters would basically create their own custom model.

[00:33:46] Kaila: So it’s like, I have a library of music that is available to the public, and then I have a library of music that I’ve never released. And maybe that’s the music that I would train my own AI on. And then that’s the way that I can get my credit and my compensation, where you’d be able to, you know, license that to now create your own works that are in my style, right?

[00:34:06] Kaila: Because then at least it gives, the artists or the creative that agency to decide how much or how little that they want to include as well as their pricing. So I think that there is, you know, room for a model to grow like that. I haven’t… I’ve been weary about feeding all my stuff to anyone, like I’ve said before, because we still, there’s not a lot of transparency about how it’s used or how it could be reproduced.

[00:34:33] Kaila: And so I’m not ready, necessarily, to take that step, but I am interested in continuing to explore what that might look like in the future.

[00:34:41] Helen: I love that you said that you have some predictions and that this is one, I would love to hear some of your other predictions of where things, might go too.

[00:34:51] Kaila: Well, one of the predictions that I made in my book, AI, The Bootleg Brain, is a time when they, at the beginning of this year, they had what were plugins. And so this was like basically allowing Chat GPT to call on third party apps. So like, I think it was one, it was Expedia or one of these travel sites, like basically, “Hey, I’d like to book a trip from here to here.”

[00:35:08] Kaila: And then you could actually make a call to the Expedia website and find like the flights or whatnot and then do a call back and go through the booking process and the conversational nature. And my prediction was that, all of these plugins were going to be completely obsolete and replaced with custom GPTs, which is now what happened and that custom GPTs will really be the future.

[00:35:31] Kaila: And like, basically creating a custom GPT and deploying it, is the, you know, that’s the basis for an AI agent. And that right now that AI agents will be the future, the hot thing, the like what a website was to people in the early 2000s.

[00:35:47] Helen: As you were saying that, it reminded me of something that was said at MAICON, which is the Marketing AI Institute’s conference, which you would actually love that.

[00:35:53] Helen: It’s great. It’s in Cleveland. But one of the takeaways that one of the keynote speakers said is that, apps are going to be dead. Cause you know, if the humans are going to be interacting with them, and it’s just AI, you know, agents interacting with each other, which I don’t think that’s going to happen that fast.

[00:36:15] Helen: Cause you still, there’s still some apps that humans will always want to use, I think, but they said that friction is dead. So any type of friction along, but the, yeah, how you predicted the no plugins, I thought that was a pretty bold prediction that apps will be dead in the near future. So, I don’t know if I’m like 100 percent on board, but I thought that was definitely a thought provoking comment that was said at that conference.

[00:36:41] Kaila: Yeah, I can totally see that, as everything is just integrated. And it’s like, even Gary Vee says, like, everything will be kind of just like voice commands where it’s just like, “Hey, you know, can you book me a reservation at that one Italian restaurant down the street for four people at 5pm.” You know, like, hell yeah, if I could do that again, I don’t want to go on no Open Table app, okay!?

[00:37:04] Helen: I want to go back to SXSW because I love that you were there too. And we’ll have to, I’ll have to figure out which sessions I went to, because we probably were in the room at the same time at some point.

[00:37:14] Kaila: I know. I just feel it, yeah.

[00:37:17] Helen: But I’m curious, like your takeaways of the vibe, because like, last year, in 2023, like it was a lot of the vibe around AI is very much like the fear, dystopian.

[00:37:31] Helen: And there’s still a lot of that in the discourse and conversations, but it seems to be shifting to more like kind of what you’re saying of like, “it’s here, the genie’s out the bottle. How can we empower it? And infuse our own values into our creative process.” So it seems like the vibe is like shifting a bit to embracing AI.

[00:37:52] Helen: Are you feeling that on your side or when you talk to artists, like, what are, your conversations that you’re having with other artists?

[00:38:00] Kaila: I mean, I always like to hear from both sides. You know, I’m actually in a Facebook group called Artists Against Generative AI. You know, and because I feel like it’s important to understand, you know, those concerns and that’s important to understand, like where it’s coming from or what possible solutions or what kind of balance that there can be, because I don’t think that it’s realistic to say, you know, “Hey, let’s just rally against the generative AI and get all of these companies to shut down.”

[00:38:30] Kaila: I just think that we’re, that is just… unfortunately, a lost cause. I think that our best hope is that we can demand greater transparency, that we can demand, you know, that we put the guidelines in place, that it’s built more ethically and responsibly. I think that we can, we have a shot at trying to slow it down.

[00:38:53] Kaila: You know, things like that, but I think that saying that it should just be banned completely is just, not really where I’m trying to put my energy, you know, I think. And so it’s like, I do have a lot of empathy for artists where they’re like, “Well, I used to get all these commissions and now I’m not.”

[00:39:11] Kaila: And so it’s just like, okay, well, where can the evolution happen to where we can shift or make that something now? Or, you know, it’s always about pivoting. Like, I feel like in tech, it’s always about pivoting. I’ve had to pivot so many times, or I had ideas that I thought were great or something changed, conditions changed.

[00:39:29] Kaila: And then, you know, pandemics happen and you just like find a way. And so it’s really just about coming up with those solutions and finding a way while also, you know, still acknowledging that’s a real fear or a real consequence of somebody that used to have this business coming in, and now it’s not. But I’m also the type of person that’s like, you know, I’ll be sad about something for a little while, but it’s not, you know, now it’s like, let’s figure it out because I can’t.

[00:39:56] Kaila: That’s not a sustainable situation. Even if it’s a situation that’s not my fault, you know, I still got to deal with the consequences of it. So I think that the conversation is always different depending on the space that you’re in because of course you go somewhere like Midwest Con, you’re not gonna really hear those the objections in the same way, you know? Because we’re also seeing the ways that you know, I work with a Black owned, generationally owned, woman owned beauty salon, and I was helping her with some of her graphics, and one of the pain points that she had is that there was not, you know, in a program like Canva, in the stock images and photos, there’s not a whole lot of Black models that, you know, for eyelash extensions or masseuse pictures that she wanted to use as stock photos.

[00:40:38] Kaila: And so I think that’s an amazing way where AI was able to come in and provide this type of diversity. But then you look and you apply that same principle. And it’s like, well, when Levi’s does it, this huge jeans corporation; so then it sparks a whole new debate, right?

[00:40:53] Kaila: Where it’s like, what is ethical? And it comes back to the ideas of ownership and compensation. And so, you know, I think that AI, like people be like, “Oh, well we should get outside and develop more authentic human connections.” But there’s some people that just really need help or maybe don’t have those resources or just super introverted, and AI can be like, maybe solve for some people’s loneliness.

[00:41:16] Kaila: Or it’d be like my homegirl. Sometimes I developed my, a custom GPT of my homegirl. And when she’s not around, I will sit there and ask questions and I will get some really good advice. I’m like, dang, you really helped me out today, enlightened daylight GPT, you know?

[00:41:30] Kaila: And so I’m like, wow, there’s a lot of applications for it to bridge language barriers with its incredible translations capacity, for it to, you know, be able to take that small business and give them some of the tools that they need to compete with the big dogs that they might not have been able to afford otherwise.

[00:41:50] Kaila: And so that’s why it’s so difficult for me to say, “Oh, it’s all good. Or it’s all bad because I can see, just like anything, how it can be both.”

[00:41:58] Helen: Yeah. And you know, I was having a conversation with someone just the other day of like, we don’t respect artists and value artists as much as we should as a society.

[00:42:12] Helen: And we need artists so much right now to help us like navigate and interrogate this, massive change of, you know, how this tech is impacting society and culture like, this is like a beautiful role that artists play or one of the roles that artists play and, you know, I’m with you, like the show explores the good, the bad and everything in between of like, you got to know the lay of the land and how to move forward.

[00:42:43] Helen: And I think one thing that I’m excited about the potential or the possibility is actually new revenue models, because like, you know, Spotify, to your point, solved, the piracy issue, but very few artists actually make a lot of money off of Spotify. But then you have like NFTs and, you know, potentially new, business models and revenue models that we haven’t explored yet.

[00:43:09] Helen: And that same panel at SXSW, which I’m going to have to figure out the dang title of it.

[00:43:13] Kaila: Right. Right.

[00:43:16] Helen: I mean, they were talking about another thing… look at Grimes or Holly Herndon that are like sharing their actual cloned voice with their audience. And it’s like, if you can make music using my voice, I’ll split the revenues with you or, you know, that’s Grimes’ approach.

[00:43:33] Helen: So I think, you know, I’m excited about new revenue models. And then, hopefully, society will get on board of like, we need to really embrace and elevate and support our artists because you guys are special and we need you at this moment in time.

[00:43:48] Kaila: Yeah, I think that artists are being called right now to play a new elevated role in society.

[00:43:53] Kaila: And, that’s why I’m really passionate about the direct to consumer model. Helping artists, like, really identify who their fan base is because you don’t need to have a whole lot of fans, you know, you don’t need to have like the millions, you know, you just need to have people that are truly committed, that you’re making a difference in their lives.

[00:44:10] Kaila: And then, you know, once you do truly identify who those people are, then you’re more likely to attract more of them and find them and know where they congregate, and have that clear vision of them. But I think that, you know, artists now, like let’s say that we’re selling, like… what is it that artists can do that AI cannot, I think the pandemic, at least in the Bay area, of course, like we, we lost a lot of venues that I used to perform at, or they changed hands and owners and it kind of changed the going out culture a bit.

[00:44:40] Kaila: And it doesn’t feel like it’s really rebounded, but now, when everything that you see and hear on the internet can be faked and you’re not sure what’s authentic, I think that’s going to incentivize people to go out and actually have more of these in real life experiences and go actually see the artists that they really like.

[00:44:57] Kaila: You know, you can have Suno generate a song and sometimes it could even be a good song and it might be a song that somebody’s ear cannot distinguish from a human artist as an AI song, but the difference that’s going to be made is when that AI song, there’s still going to be a need to be a real artist that goes out and performs it and be on stage and provide that experience and, you know, be at the merch booth and interact with the fans or create again some type of experience.

[00:45:25] Kaila: And so I think that these are the areas that artists can really lean into and see as opportunities versus something that’s being taken away.

[00:45:33] Helen: I agree. And I mean, just this past couple of months as a microcosm, I have been on a conference spree. MidwestCon was definitely one where we met you, but like that post pandemic of people just like hungry to like be together again.

[00:45:50] Helen: I feel that at all these events that are popping up left and right. And yeah, in the world where it’s becoming harder to distinguish the real from not real online, that human connection, you know, is so, so important. So I couldn’t agree with you more about that.

[00:46:11] Kaila: Yeah, no, definitely. I’m like, Oh, it’d be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[00:46:15] Helen: I feel like that was like another prediction that you could add to the list.

[00:46:20] Kaila: Oh, I guess so, huh?

[00:46:22] Helen: The more in person and the experiences that people have with fans, although I will say, which I support, like, I support artists. This is what the show is about. And that said, I had an interesting conversation with one artist, she doesn’t want to be named and she didn’t want to come on the show because she’s like, I don’t like to talk publicly about this.

[00:46:42] Helen: But one of her views is even if it’s AI art or a machine completely makes it without too much human input that if a human reacts to it and has emotional reaction, then that’s art and it serves its purpose, regardless of who makes it. And I thought that was kind of very interesting, too, because you can have an emotional reaction to it.

[00:47:04] Helen: I don’t know, a rock on the ground, depending on where you’re at.

[00:47:07] Kaila: Like, what is it, the banana that was duct taped in a gallery? Like, you know…

[00:47:15] Helen: But I think like the soul in the music, you know, that’s what you don’t get from the machines, in a way that you get from artists. But I don’t know, do you have any other reactions, to that comment?

[00:47:28] Kaila: I mean, there have been some songs that I’ve generated where I’m like, dang, you know, I like, or [that] actually got stuck in my head or I actually want to listen to it again. So I feel like, yeah, because at the end of the day, once again, the reason that these AI models are able to reproduce something like that, whether it’s a song or an art piece is because it’s been scraped from, you know, millions and billions of data points of content from real artists.

[00:47:57] Kaila: And so that’s why in some aspects, it’s truly fascinating to me because I think about like, dang, when I type into a prompt, into Chat GPT, it’s like I’m tapping into, a collection of human consciousness. Where it’s like, you know, you think about every Google search that’s happened or every, you know, Facebook comment that’s been posted and every website that’s been uploaded and crawled.

[00:48:22] Kaila: And wow, you can like tap into that in one place. It’s something it’s just, it’s really interesting. And so I feel like the reason that you can still have an AI generated image that can provoke that type of human emotion is because, you know, there was a lot of human emotion that went into the art that was then fed to be able to even reproduce something like that.

[00:48:44] Kaila: But the unfortunate part about it is, that we’ll never know. You know, like I said, AI, it gives no credit. And furthermore, when I was talking about in my book, The lawsuits like George R.R. Martin, you know, the creator of the Game of Thrones series, there, he’s one of several authors and like the New York Times that’s suing Chat GPT, OpenAI, for copyright infringement, essentially.

[00:49:08] Kaila: And, you know, on one hand, it’s like, you know, of course we don’t want to have that, like, we want to give credit compensation, and then on the other hand, it’s kind of like me telling you, like, “oh, you had a bad experience? Well, why don’t you just, like, locate that memory in your brain and just delete it, and never think about it again?”

[00:49:39] Kaila: And that’s what AI being the bootleg brain, it’s now that it’s been fed, it’s kind of this consciousness and now it starts interacting in a way that we can’t like extract it. And so that’s why it’s so difficult to have like any type of recourse or like be able to undo what’s been done.

[00:49:46] Helen: What I will say, though, if you look at, like Adobe Firefly there, there is explainable AI and their model on the back end of their algorithm. If you use an image, in any of their AI Firefly products, it goes back to the artists who helped train it and they do get some compensation with it.

[00:50:10] Helen: So it is possible. And that these, you know, these big LLMs are like, “we can only train on copyrighted [material],” you know, that there are examples where explainable AI does work. But yeah, I think what you’re saying is really fascinating about, you know, it’s like this digitaln consciousness of – it’s almost like the, the new library of Alexandria that’s been trained on, you know, everything that can be scraped, but what does that mean in our relationship to it and stuff? So definitely very interesting times.

[00:50:46] Kaila: I think that’s like a really valid point. And thank you for sharing that about Firefly because I did see that Adobe was like rolling out some of these new features, like even when you’re exporting that you can say if you wanted to be trained or not. And I think that those are great steps in the right direction.

[00:51:02] Kaila: But it’s still like who’s monopolizing the space right now. And it’s Open AI. And it’s like when you have one of those big actors, a lot of times they set the tone. And interestingly enough, the board member Helen Toner was the one who wrote the paper and kind of the whole fallout with Sam Altman. you know, they partially attributed to that where, you know, when he decided to drop Chat GPT on the world in this Pandora’s box, a lot of the other companies that were waiting in the wings because they knew that what they had was so powerful that it could not be undone and, you know, we should develop it right.

[00:51:40] Kaila: It’s like a lot of those safeguards came down just to get that first mover advantage. And, that’s why I think it’s like. Adobe is a big player for sure. So they’ll definitely make an impact. And I hope that they have ripple effects that, create an example for other companies, but it’s still, you know, the big ones that we, that are gonna, they have a big role to play in the future of how it plays out.

[00:52:03] Helen: For sure. I know we’re getting close to the end of the interview. What do you have lined up for the rest of the year? Any other exciting projects or things that you’re looking forward to in the wild world of Gen AI?

[00:52:17] Kaila: Oh man. Well, I’m just really working on formalizing the launch of my AI consultancy.

[00:52:22] Kaila: Just more of education, like particularly for, you know, I love teaching older people. I was raised by my great grandma. You know, I taught my grandma now how to use Chat GPT, and my niece, like teaching kids. Teaching people just to also to make money online, financial freedom and using tools to empower us to do that is really important.

[00:52:44] Kaila: So just developing a lot of curriculum, content and music around that and supporting that mission. And, yeah, I’m just kind of, I want to go on a conference frenzy too, but I’ve just been like staying super grounded and just like working away and just building out a bunch of stuff. And that’s what I’m gonna continue doing for the rest of the year.

[00:53:03] Kaila: And then I’m going back to Thailand in January. I went there last year around this time, actually for three months. And that’s when I wrote my book. And so I’ll probably be writing, well, like updating that version and probably writing a new book as well in the new year.

[00:53:19] Helen: Amazing. Well, I did the opposite.

[00:53:23] Helen: I’ve just been doing the conferences and I want to go to Thailand to actually get the work done too.

[00:53:26] Kaila: I’m like, girl, come out! Come out with me!

[00:53:32] Helen: Maybe we could do, a Kaila Love Creativity Squared retreat for AI in Thailand.

[00:53:37] Kaila: Yes! Yes ma’am, please!

[00:53:42] Helen: If you’re interested, reach out and we can make that happen.

[00:53:45] Kaila: We’ll make it happen.

[00:53:47] Helen: And how can people find you or where can they find you online?

[00:53:50] Kaila: Oh, well, my, my username, well, if you search Kaila Love, kailalove.AI, that’s my AI website. I also have dot com (kailalove.com). That’s my music website. And it’s @kailalove.ai on Instagram. So, I’m there on all the platforms, or you just email me y’all, kailalove@gogetters.ai

[00:54:09] Helen: Amazing. And I’ll be sure to include all of these on our dedicated blog posts. And one thing I ask all of the guests, on Creativity Squared is if you want our listeners and viewers to remember one thing about your work or conversation or really anything related to AI or humanity, what would you like them to walk away with?

[00:54:33] Kaila: I think the thing that I would want people to remember is that you’re output is only as good as your input. So whether you are prompting a generative AI system or creating a song or painting, writing an essay to just make sure that you give it your best at the very beginning. And I went to audio engineering school and the key principle that we learned, the golden rule is to record as if there is no mix and to mix as if there is no master.

[00:55:01] Kaila: So making sure that you give it your best possible shot right from the beginning.

[00:55:05] Helen: So beautifully said and well said and such a great note to end the show on. Kaila Love, I am so glad that we met at MidwestCon.

[00:55:13] Kaila: Me too!

[00:55:14] Helen: And it’s been such a joy having you on Creativity Squared. So thank you so much.

[00:55:18] Kaila: Thank you so much, Helen. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:55:24] Helen: Thank you for spending some time with us today. We’re just getting started and would love your support. Subscribe to Creativity Squared on your preferred podcast platform and leave a review. It really helps. And I’d love to hear your feedback. What topics are you thinking about? And want to dive into more, I invite you to visit CreativitySquared.com to let me know.

[00:55:43] Helen: And while you’re there, be sure to sign up for our free weekly newsletter so you can easily stay on top of all the latest news at the intersection of AI and creativity. Because it’s so important to support artists, 10% of all revenue Creativity Squared generates will go to ArtsWave, a nationally recognized nonprofit that supports over a hundred arts organizations.

[00:56:04] Helen: Become a Premium Newsletter subscriber or leave a tip on the website to support this project and ArtsWave. And premium newsletter subscribers will receive NFTs of episode cover art and more extras to say thank you for helping bring my dream to life. And a big, big thank you to everyone who’s offered their time, energy, and encouragement and support so far.

[00:56:26] Helen: I really appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. This show is produced and made possible by the team at Play Audio Agency. Until next week, keep creating.