Who's In This Podcast
Helen Todd is co-founder and CEO of Sociality Squared and the human behind Creativity Squared.
Director of Future Mobility Design (FMD) Lab and Research Associate at UC Digital Futures, and Mobility Systems Design Professor at the University of Cincinnati
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Ep38. Human-Centered A.I. & Empathy: Why Designing for Extreme Use Cases and Not Just the Average Uplifts All with UC Digital Futures Alejandro Lozano Robledo
Growing up in the traffic-clogged streets of Bogotá, Colombia, Alejandro Lozano Robledo has long been fascinated by the untapped potential of our cities to uplift everyone, especially the most marginalized. Today, he leads research on autonomy, smart cities, the shared economy, A.I., and transit-oriented development using human-centered design as the Director of Future Mobility Design Lab and Research Associate at UC Digital Futures in addition to being a Mobility Systems Design Professor at the University of Cincinnati.
Epitomizing that the future is collaborative, Alejandro partners with researchers across disciplines like aerospace engineering and urban planning to reimagine the future. He collaborates with industry partners like Boeing, government partners like the Department of Transportation, and non-profits like Uptown Consortium on innovative proposals that use mobility to improve quality of life.
Since 2018, Alejandro has taught Industrial Design at DAAP, leading the Mobility Systems Design program since 2020. He partners with companies like Gravity Sketch to develop new virtual and augmented reality workflows for design education. With over six patents and an International Crystal Cabin Award, Alejandro has presented his research nationally and internationally.
“We specialize in understanding people’s needs. But then we bring technologies such as AR and VR, and these exciting new ways of testing, and coming up with future solutions. So the applications are really endless.”
Alejandro Lozano Robledo
In today’s conversation, you’ll discover how empathy is key for human-centered A.I. and the necessity of having a vision for what’s possible. We also discuss the importance of the year 2040 related to paradigm-shifting megatrends, Alejandro’s future projection method, inspiration from the fictional city of Wakanda as an example of the rising Solar Punk movement, and our evolution to Techno Sapiens. Alejandro also shares the importance of keeping humans at the center of critical, societal decisions, especially as A.I. plays an increasingly assistive role in all facets of our lives. Finally, he discusses why we need to design emerging technologies, including A.I., for extreme use cases, not just the average.
What can the future look like if we make the right decisions now? Read on and check out the interview to find out!
The Human Element of Urban Design
Through his position at the Future Mobility Design Lab, Alejandro sits at the crossroads where stakeholders from every sector of city life meet to design and plan the urban environment of the future.
Designing the future of how our cities will function is a complex process, requiring consideration of quantitative factors like population, economic conditions, and politics, as well as more individualized qualitative factors, the intangible aspects of somebody’s environment that affect their quality of life.
His work influences and is influenced by a collection of stakeholders, including multidisciplinary academics, policymakers and funders in government, industry partners to help drive innovation, and community-focused nonprofits.
His lab is part of a larger multidisciplinary effort at the University of Cincinnati’s new Digital Futures building (DF) to explore how we can best leverage emerging technology to solve today’s challenges. Others at the DF focus on areas such as aerospace engineering, biomechanics, and crypto-economics.
As a human-centered designer and researcher, Alejandro focuses on understanding the applications and how they will affect people.
“Technology has no value by itself; the value is in the applications. How are you using technology to help people?”
Alejandro Lozano Robledo
Augmented and virtual reality (AR and VR) are examples of technology providing value, specifically by helping to envision design solutions.
Not too long ago, Alejandro’s lab used VR technology to render a digital twin of an intersection in Cincinnati as it could look in 10 to 20 years. Alejandro says that immersing somebody in the digital space helps non-technical stakeholders play a more active role in the design process. Rather than trying to decipher a blueprint or imagine how a 2D image would translate into a 3D space, those without the skills or need help visualizing a concept to make that leap can instead strap on a VR headset and navigate the virtual space as if they were navigating the real-life intersection.
Alejandro and his team hosted a meeting with government officials to show them the digital intersection and gather feedback. More immersion means better-informed feedback, which leads to better decision-making.
AR/VR also helps condense the design process by reducing the limits of geography. Through AR/VR, Alejandro and his team can collaborate in the same digital space with partners from across the world. Design tasks that may have taken years to complete when Alejandro was an undergrad now only take a few weeks.
Alejandro doesn’t doubt that these technologies, especially A.I., will become fully intertwined in our lives, especially given humans’ tendency to anthropomorphize the tools we use. It’s already happening with the rise of A.I. companions; it will accelerate as more people adopt A.I. assistants to manage their lives, and ultimately, A.I. may reach a point where it shapes our lives as much as the reverse. Through these changes, Alejandro hopes that humans remain entirely behind the wheel, driving decision-making that benefits all people impacted in communities where the technology is deployed.
His research focuses squarely on the needs of the individual, and he envisions a world where technological innovation does not come at the expense of human needs but rather as a result of and in support of those needs.
Solarpunk 2040: Turning Fiction into the Future
With the rise of autonomous devices, artificial intelligence, the Internet of Things, and the tech-enabled sharing economy, we are witnessing a historic paradigm shift similar to the impact of the Industrial and Information Revolutions, and soon to be the age of Techno Sapiens.
While these technologies are still young, Alejandro thinks they’ll simply be a regular part of our lives within the next 16 years. The world in 2040 may be hard to imagine, but we are already creating that world through the decisions we make here and now. Although there’s valid cause for caution in designing and implementing these tech innovations, Alejandro aligns with a more optimistic view of how technology will transform our future.
“I like to be very utopian and optimistic. Just because some things can go wrong, doesn’t mean they will, and maybe making decisions now can help us get to a more utopian society.”
Alejandro Lozano Robledo
He draws inspiration from a growing conceptual framework called Solarpunk. It’s similar to more popular aesthetic concepts like steampunk or cyberpunk. While dystopian themes tend to play a more significant role in the steam and cyberpunk genres, Solarpunk focuses more on how technology can improve humans’ lives. The Solarpunk ethos can be seen in contemporary depictions such as Wakanda, the fictional country featured in the Marvel Universe’s Black Panther, where technology has solved issues like energy scarcity, disease, hunger, and climate disaster.
Some of Alejandro’s hopes for a Solarpunk future include sustainable, self-reliant, locally-grown economies and cities designed first and foremost for humans, with accessible transportation options that operate in harmony with human and environmental needs.
Imagining a utopian future isn’t just a thought exercise; Alejandro says that Solarpunk and similar aesthetics are helpful because they provide a framework for various disciplines in the process of creating culture. Solarpunk-inspired images, poems, songs, and designs of today may become the cultural touchstones of the future. Remembering that may help us make the right decisions today to achieve that future, and he stresses the need to have a vision for where we’re heading in the age of A.I. and emerging mega-trend technologies.
Opportunity By Design with Future Projection Method
Designing for a future we can’t clearly envision is like gambling: countless possible outcomes constantly fluctuating between likely and impossible. Alejandro and his team use a future projection method to map current and upcoming tech innovation trends on a timeline. From there, they pick a year in the future and build different sets of assumptions about what the tech landscape could look like in that year. This process helps them visualize a spectrum of possible outcomes which helps us be more prepared for any of the possible scenarios that come to fruition.
Besides tech trends, cultural factors can significantly impact those outcomes as well, as we’ve seen historically. Alejandro highlights this by comparing the layout of Barcelona with a typical U.S. city. Much of downtown Barcelona predates the automobile by several hundred years. As a result, Barcelona is much more multimodal and pedestrian-friendly than the average U.S. city designed primarily for vehicle mobility. On a recent trip to Spain, Alejandro toured some of Barcelona’s “superblocks,” 3-block by 3-block clusters where cars are prohibited, freeing residents to navigate their community safely via foot or bicycle.
Superblocks are an example of “urban reshaping,” the process of making incremental changes to an existing environment. Urban reshaping initiatives can often be as simple as repainting an intersection with a new color scheme. Low-tech solutions like that can compound into more significant changes, especially where the status quo is so entrenched that sudden and dramatic changes are impractical.
“Just because we have access to really cool technologies doesn’t mean it’s the best immediate solution. It could be a combination of a few things. So thinking of it more as a system is really important.”
Alejandro Lozano Robledo
Urban reshaping also offers the opportunity to address historic inequities, such as the lack of transportation options in lower-income communities. Alejandro says that lack of physical mobility creates barriers to opportunity, often resulting in less socioeconomic mobility. Those disparities worsen over time, further distancing the haves from the have-nots.
Alejandro believes that good design should first and foremost accommodate extreme use cases on the margin. If you’re designing an autonomous car, for example, it’s better to design the vehicle with a wheelchair user in mind first than to design it for an average person and later have to alter that design to accommodate a wheelchair user. The design accommodates both for the average and wheelchair person.
Closing Thoughts
How do we plan and design our environment for a future where our physical and digital realities are merged into one? According to Alejandro, we start with a human-centered approach.
In order to achieve the utopia we write fiction about, we need to think about the value of technology through the lens of what people need, especially those whose needs haven’t historically been prioritized.
By intentionally incorporating empathy into our designs for the future, we can reshape reality to accommodate and uplift all of us.
“It’s up to us to dictate what the impact of these technologies will be. It’s up to us to make decisions now, to get together and ask a very simple question, which is ‘why?’ Why should we? I want to leave people on an optimistic note: I believe in our future being a very positive one, but we will be in charge of it. So let’s take action.”
Alejandro Lozano Robledo
Even as we become more reliant on technology to interact with our environment, Alejandro reminds us not to focus too much on what could go wrong and ignore what could go right, as we are ultimately the ones steering the ship.
Links Mentioned in this Podcast
- Future Mobility Design Lab
- UC Digital Futures
- Gravity Sketch
- Solarpunk: The radically optimistic vision of the future we need right now?
Continue the Conversation
Thank you, Alejandro, for being our guest on Creativity Squared.
This show is produced and made possible by the team at PLAY Audio Agency: https://playaudioagency.com.
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TRANSCRIPT
Alejandro: [00:00:00] But it’s really up to us to have agency and to dictate what the impact of these technologies will be. It’s up to us to make decisions now, to get together, which is not usually the easiest way, and just really learn to ask a very simple question, which is, Why? Why should we? Just because we can doesn’t mean we should.
Alejandro: Let’s ask why, and that also has the empathy component, which means, how is it affecting people?
Helen: Growing up in the traffic clog streets of Bogota, Columbia, Alejandro Lozano Robledo has long been fascinated by the untapped potential of our cities to uplift everyone, especially the most marginalized. Today, he leads research on autonomy, smart cities, the shared economy, AI and transit oriented development using human centered design as the director of Future Mobility Design Lab and research associate at UC Digital Futures, in addition to being a mobility systems design professor at the University of Cincinnati.
Helen: Epitomizing that the future is collaborative, Alejandro partners with researchers across disciplines like aerospace engineering and urban planning to reimagine the future. He collaborates with industry partners like Boeing, government partners, like the Department of Transportation and nonprofits, like the Uptown Consortium on innovative proposals that use mobility to improve quality of life. Since 2018, Alejandro has taught industrial design at DAAP leading the mobility systems design program since 2020.
Helen: He partners with companies like Gravity Sketch to develop new virtual and augmented reality workflows for design education. With over six patents and an International Crystal Cabin Award, Alejandro has presented his research nationally and internationally.
Helen: Alejandro and I met at the UC Digital Futures building, and I was immediately impressed with his optimism for co-creating a more utopian future with a focus on technology’s impact on people. In today’s conversation, you’ll discover how empathy is key for human centered AI and the necessity of having a vision for what’s possible.
Helen: We also discuss the importance of the year 2040 related to paradigm shifting megatrends. Alejandro’s future projection method, inspiration from the fictional city of Wakanda as an example of the rising Solarpunk movement and our evolution to techno sapiens. Alejandro also shares the importance of keeping humans at the center of critical societal decisions, especially as AI plays an increasingly assistive role in all facets of our lives.
Helen: Finally, he discusses why we need to design emerging technologies, including AI for extreme cases, not just the average. What can the future look like if we make the right decisions now? Listen in to find out. Enjoy.
Helen: Welcome to Creativity Squared. Discover how creatives are collaborating with artificial intelligence in your inbox, on YouTube, and on your preferred podcast platform. Hi, I’m Helen Todd, your host, and I’m so excited to have you join the weekly conversations I’m having with amazing pioneers in this space.
Helen: The intention of these conversations is to ignite our collective imagination at the intersection of AI and creativity to envision a world where artists thrive.
Helen: Alejandro, welcome to Creativity Squared. It is so great to have you on the show.
Alejandro: Thank you. Thank you, Helen. Always a pleasure. And I think we share the same energy so, happy to be here.
Helen: Alejandro and I met at the UC Digital Futures building; their one year anniversary 2.0 grand opening, and we hit it off really quick.
Helen: And as listeners of the show know, I’ve kind of become an unofficial ambassador slash fangirl of all the work at the UC Digital Futures building. So it’s such a treat to have Alejandro here on the show. And for those who are meeting you for the first time, can you introduce yourself and share your origin story?
Alejandro: Okay, well, thank you everyone who is listening or who will be a part of this later on. It’s a pleasure to be here. So my name is Alejandro. I currently lead a multidisciplinary research lab here at Digital Futures, which as Helen said, here’s where we met and my lab really focuses on the future of cities and mobility.
Alejandro: My expertise is I’m a human centered researcher. You know, my background is in industrial design and design research, which I’m sure will be some of the topics to talk about. I also teach at the university and really what I specialize in is bringing human centered aspects of research and technology.
Alejandro: What is the impact of technology and how can we make decisions, you know, to help people’s lives be better. How can the future be better given all the exciting changes that are happening? So I’m sure we will dive into that as well. My origin story is, I was actually born and raised in Colombia and lived there for almost the first 20 years of my life, and it’s a big part of what I carry, you know, the background where I’ve been, the places where I’ve lived.
Alejandro: I studied, actually, automotive design in a very specialized school in Michigan, so really involved in transportation, but specifically in the automotive industry. I worked for a few companies in the automotive industry and some other places, but I came to UC several years ago to do my master’s in design research.
Alejandro: So really specializing in process and human centered research. And then, you know, started teaching in the university and everything led to where I am now, which is pretty much leading a lab that realizes my professional vision, which is really about people and systems. How can we plan better cities and places like this?
Alejandro: So very, very passionate about what I do. And I get to work with students, get to work with government entities, with industry, nonprofits and other researchers as well. So, very exciting new chapter. And we’ve only been in Digital Futures for a year. The conversations that Helen and I have had are really setting us up for the next phase of what we are doing, which is how can we keep growing and understanding these new technologies and getting people excited about them as well.
Helen: Thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I first heard human centered design when I was in grad school working on a marketing project for an organization based in Boston. But for those who may be hearing this for the first time, can you actually explain? I mean, it’s kind of self explanatory in the title.
Helen: But can you kind of explain what human centered design is and how that’s kind of a unique field, even within the interdisciplinary building that’s UC Digital Futures?
Alejandro: Yes, absolutely. So human centered research and human centered design, what it really specializes in is a process. Which process?
Alejandro: The understanding people’s needs process. So the process I specialize in many ways involves technology, in many ways involves different methods to help understand where the opportunities are, where the needs are of people. But then framing scenarios and understanding, you know, how could they manifest in the future?
Alejandro: So we specialize in understanding people’s needs, but then we bring technology such as AR and VR and these exciting new ways of testing and coming up with future solutions. So the applications are really endless. Most of the questions we have about the future involve people, and that’s where I come in.
Alejandro: How can we understand the very large factors, which we call quantitatives, understanding cities, understanding populations, economy, politics, all of those, but then understanding qualitative factors, which means at the individual level, interviewing someone and really understanding their needs. And that’s the core of the research that I specialize in.
Alejandro: And then the technology component comes in as the way that we Visualizing test, which is another part of it that I’m more than happy to talk about.
Helen: I know I mentioned I’m a very big proponent of human centered AI. So I feel like the more that we can center humans for all of this new tech, the better, and I think one thing that we also share is just how can technology serve humans?
Helen: And I’d love for you to share in your own words, what excites you about that and your mission and behind the research that you do the work that you do at UC.
Alejandro: Well, that question is really great because it resonates so much. I know with you as well. As you said, we do share this passion for technology and its applications for people.
Alejandro: If you come to my lab, you’ll see that the statement that I always choose to share first is “technology and mobility are about people.” Technology, more importantly, you know, technology has no value by itself. The value’s in the applications. How are you using technology to help people? So part of my mission really is, as a human centered researcher and designer, ask all of these questions.
Alejandro: And many of my colleagues, going back to the Digital Futures building, this is a multidisciplinary research building where we have aerospace engineers, people from biomechanics, crypto economics, everyone is focusing on a different side of technology. My side of technology is understanding the applications and understanding how it will affect people.
Alejandro: So always go back to the word empathy. It’s really always about empathy. How can we improve the quality of life of people? And the exciting part of it all is, which I’m sure we’ll talk about more, right now is a very exciting time for technology. I know probably every generation has said that, but there are very good reasons why we’re seeing such dramatic change right now.
Alejandro: And people like you and I are really trying to question. The impact of this. What could it do for us? And making good decisions now that can shape up the future.
Helen: Well, and since you mentioned or we’ve both mentioned that UC Digital Futures building a lot. Can you, maybe for those who are listening to this episode for the first time, kind of explain what it is on the University of Cincinnati’s campus for those who might not know UC, what that stands for.
Helen: And just kind of the collaborative approach because it is really fantastic that so many disciplines are under one roof. And some of the goals for the school too, because it’s giving schools like Stanford and MIT a run for its money too, especially on the responsible AI front.
Alejandro: Yeah, that’s very exciting, and thank you for framing it this way. So, the University of Cincinnati is a very big university. We have about 46, 000 students and it’s constantly growing. But one of the very big missions that the leadership of the university, the president of the university, has is in terms of how can we put ourselves as a top 10 research university by 2030.
Alejandro: So we’re currently, I think, top 26 or something like that. But the president has a very big mission of let’s be nation leading in terms of multidisciplinary research so Digital Futures comes in as a very powerful statement of this 2030 goal in which they’re getting people like myself who specialize in a very specific part of, you know, future technologies and future applications from across all fields under one roof.
Alejandro: So basically the Digital Futures building has over 20 to 25 different labs of all kinds of disciplines in which, the premise of it is, we get to collaborate among ourselves and we get to seek partners outside of the university to answer, you know, what they frame as problems that matter, questions that have real implications in the future.
Alejandro: So labs. The main difference between a traditional, for example, college in the university and Digital Futures is these labs operate as their own enterprises, their own consultancy. So we seek for, you know, government funding, we seek for industry partners, we seek for nonprofit partners.
Alejandro: And from the student level, it’s so exciting because as a student, you get to come here and it’s actually in the form of an internship or a job, so you get to work for the lab and get paid to work for the lab involved in very large initiatives. So many of which, like I said, have to do with government level proposals that are trying to answer the same questions that we’re asking on the impact of AI, the impact of autonomy working across disciplines.
Alejandro: And it’s been a very exciting chapter. And as you mentioned from other universities and other institutions like MIT, the exciting part of Digital Futures is just really on leveraging the scale of the university. So if you think of MIT, they’re highly specialized, mostly on technical disciplines. At UC, we can leverage psychology, anthropology, the medical campus, you know, empirical sciences versus other types of sciences humanities.
Alejandro: So that’s where truly being a big university can offer these benefits.
Helen: Yeah, that’s amazing. And I just love, like, I’m a big believer that the future is about collaboration across industries, sectors, academic industry, government and so forth. So it’s so great that you all are really embracing that and leading the way on that front.
Helen: When you mentioned UC being a top school within the top 10, by 2030, but one thing that we discussed is when you’re doing projections when it comes to where the tech is going, 2040 is a number that you look at. So can you kind of share with us why that’s the magic number of looking into the future?
Alejandro: Yes, absolutely. So, in all of these conversations on future technologies and trends, 2040 keeps popping up and there’s always a very good reason why. So all the literature, all the articles that you see, really what we’re talking about in here are defined as mega trends. So these trends that are really reshaping everything.
Alejandro: So AI is a great example. AI, we really don’t know what the implications will be. It can span any industry, any field. Autonomy is another one. Smart cities is another one. Shared economy is another one. Actually, shared economy is one of my favorite mega trends that I can talk about. But the reason why they mentioned 2040 is because 2040 is projected to be the time more or less where all of these will be mass adopted.
Alejandro: So right now, if you think of autonomous cars, only a few vehicles on the street, like Tesla’s have some autonomy, or autonomous capabilities. AI is another one. Many people have started using Chat GPT and all of these tools. But 2040 means the confluence where all of these meet and almost everybody will have mass access to these.
Alejandro: So 2040 is shaping to be this year where truly the next chapter of this revolution begins. Not to go down a rabbit hole, but many of the publications at UC talk about the next revolution. So we have the industrial revolution and before that we had a couple other revolutions.
Alejandro: Since the Internet began we’re talking about the information revolution and AI is acting as this catalyst of the information revolution. What that means is we’re handing over many responsibilities that we used to do ourselves, now to data into machines, and it has really great implications. But at the same time, you know, as a human centered researcher, I always have to question, Okay, what is the impact of this?
Alejandro: How can we navigate these conversations, given all the rapid change that is happening? So 2040 is really this moment of the catalyst between AI and these other megatrends that are happening.
Helen: And one of the things that we talked about, because Alejandro was so generous in having me come to the lab and get to see his work and put on the VR headset, which we’ll talk about some of the work in a second.
Helen: But one of the things that we’ve talked about is how important it is to have a vision of where we’re going as well. And I know this has come up on the show a few times of just if we only talk about dystopian negative with AI, which, you know, there are very valid concerns that will manifest that and why it’s so important to have a positive goal and vision of where we’re going.
Helen: And one of the things that you introduced me to, Alejandro, was “Solarpunk.” So, can you introduce all of our listeners and viewers to what this is and how it fits into envisioning a better future?
Alejandro: Yes, yes, for sure, for sure. I think we’re both in the same camp of, we’re very optimistic, why not be optimistic?
Alejandro: And positive about technology and society. I really fall into this category where I’d like to be very utopian and optimistic. Just because some things can go wrong, it doesn’t mean they will. And maybe making decisions now can help us get to a more, you know, utopian society. I know we all watch sci fi movies and Black Mirror and those shows that really depict a dystopian way, but Solarpunk is a movement that I became accustomed to a few years ago.
Alejandro: And in the same way, many of us have heard cyberpunk, steampunk, and some of these future, basically what they mean is their future visions. They depict the future. Cyberpunk is a very dystopian version of that. Think of Solarpunk as kind of the opposite of it. Solarpunk just basically means what could a future society look like if we really use technology to help people. Like, what is the best use of technology.
Alejandro: So some of the implications it has is, for example, locally grown economy. So food is grown locally. Everything is very green, very sustainable, is very people centric. So we, for example, in terms of transportation and cities, we have mass transit systems that take you where you need to go, but we’re not polluting the environment.
Alejandro: There’s good quality of life. The interesting thing about these movements, because they really are movements, is that they provide a framework for many disciplines. So it’s a philosophical framework that people have written essays on. It’s an artistic framework that people have sketched out images and renderings of it, have composed poetry or music; you can use it.
Alejandro: So the way I use it in my research, especially with students, is this can be the framework for inspiration. So this is how a good vision of a future society, in which we make some of the right decisions, at least in my view. And how can we learn from this utopian concept and help, you know, steer the conversation in that way.
Alejandro: I know many of us have probably watched Marvel movies, so the country Wakanda in Marvel is kind of a Solarpunk society, if you want to get a picture for it.
Helen: Well, I know after you shared that with me, I went down a YouTube rabbit hole of learning about Solarpunk. So, anyone who follows suit, have fun.
Helen: It’s a very cool movement and I do love how green focused it is as well for, you know, how easy it is to lean more into tech, but to also have a more environmentally conscious aspect to the movement too. Well, one thing in envisioning a better future, you really use AR and VR to help bring your projects to life.
Helen: And whether it’s students working on the projects or local regulators and politicians envision what could be, so I’d love to have you share with our listeners and viewers, projects that you’re working on and how you help bring them to life with technology too.
Alejandro: Yes, absolutely.
Alejandro: So as we spoke at the very beginning of the podcast, the expertise they bring is a process, the human centered process. But the next step from that is once you have some insights or some opportunity areas, you can prototype those ideas. So I call it, you know, multi level prototyping, because we use different levels of tools, some of which are AR and VR.
Alejandro: The main thing I want to say before giving an example is that, you know, many of these technologies are happening now. Many of these tools are happening now, and they don’t have value by themselves. A big question I ask, and part of my research focuses on finding value. So some of these tools, AR and VR headsets, for example, can be used for decision making.
Alejandro: To inform people, give them more information and make better decisions on so many different things. Technologies can have endless applications. So here’s where we begin asking these questions. One of the main projects I want to talk about is a partnership with the city of Cincinnati. A very important term that I hear a lot, especially in my research and with other colleagues is this idea of a digital twin.
Alejandro: How can you create a digital environment that recreates a physical environment? So we partnered with the city of Cincinnati and we actually filed for a federal proposal with the US Department of Transportation. We basically created a pilot project where we took a real intersection here in Cincinnati.
Alejandro: We created a VR model that looks pretty, pretty realistic on what the future of that intersection could be so 10-20 years in the future, and the value that it brings is not really just the visuals and how nice it looks and you can walk around it and get an idea. But the real value we got from it was we hosted a city government meeting here, an annual meeting that took place here in the building.
Alejandro: And this time, instead of them looking at posters on the wall or blueprints on the wall, we immersed them in the city plan that they were making millions of dollars of decisions on. So the key question here is how can this offer value and [make sure] that we’re using it for decision making. So we hosted a workshop with people from the mayor’s office, from the transportation offices, community leaders, and we asked them a few questions on this digital twin, this VR map, and then basically we collected the data and that’s the data that we hope to present to the city.
Alejandro: So basically, you know. The whole idea is, if you’re immersed in a space and you can walk around and you can hear, you can listen, you can touch and feel, you can probably make better decisions or get a better idea on what it does. I also partner very closely with one of the world leading companies in VR development software.
Alejandro: So they’re called Gravity Sketch. They’re based in the UK. And one of the methods that I’ve developed at my lab, which we [have] published some papers on and things like that. It talks about how can you use VR as a creation tool? So now if you come to my lab you see some physical mock ups of, you know, low fidelity mockup of a future autonomous car, but then we put on the headset and these headsets have cameras so you can still feel, see, and touch your surroundings, but then in VR in real time, you’re validating, measuring, designing.
Alejandro: And these tools, going back to, you know, the internet of things and the cloud and everything, these tools can help us co design with our colleagues in the UK, halfway across the ocean in real time. So there’s quite a lot of investment as many of you have heard on AR and VR headsets, they’re only getting better.
Alejandro: The real value that they bring is helping us make better decisions or making processes that used to take a long, long time, much quicker. A short example I can give you from classes, so these are examples of research projects I have at the lab, but in the classroom with my design students that I teach in the mobility design program with VR alone, I can take a process that used to take, you know, a couple of years, one or two years and shorten it to a few weeks.
Alejandro: Just because we get the kinds of insights and training that, back when I was in undergraduate school, it would take you two years to really dominate a very important part of the design process, that now with these tools, we can get there much, much quicker.
Helen: Yeah, that’s so cool. And when I was at the lab, I got to see the intersection that you’re working on.
Helen: And we’ll be sure to embed the video and links to everything from today’s conversation in the description and on the dedicated episode blog post. But one of the things that was just fascinating, that it went from night to day, and you can really walk around the full idealized intersection to get a feel for it.
Helen: So it was really neat. And it’s not only in a headset, but for people who don’t have them, you can interact with it web based as well, which I thought was very cool. And one thing that you also mentioned that was really important in addition to working with the mayor’s office and the Local city officials is actually [to] get the community involvement, too.
Helen: So I’d love to Hear more about those efforts.
Alejandro: Yes. Yes, it will not Completely agreed with that point. So basically… First of all Digital Futures, the premise is multidisciplinary research. So what that means is the problems we’re trying to solve, the questions we’re asking are so complex that you can’t approach them from one side of the story, from your discipline, then the next part of the question, which brings, you know, nonprofit partners and things like that is, we really have to leverage all the different kinds of decision makers and stakeholders.
Alejandro: So, with the kind of work I do, there are 4 very important kinds of partners. First of all, academic partners and my colleagues from other disciplines here in the building, in the university, in other universities, another kind is government entities. Why? Because they provide the funding and also the legislation.
Alejandro: So governments regulate these new technologies. It’s important to work with them on that. The third one is industry partners [who] lead research and development. So the VR company in the UK that I partnered with, they make the tools and they sponsor me to test and see what innovations can we get from those tools, the fourth partnership is nonprofits.
Alejandro: Nonprofit entities are so, so important to the work that I do because they have access to communities. So we work with them very closely on the development of this intersection for Cincinnati, the digital twin. And we hosted a city government meeting that, you know, the contacts, they were the ones who had those contacts, but at the same time, later on, we hosted the same event, but with community residents.
Alejandro: And that was a very unique experience where we invited people from all ages and demographics. So imagine, aging population, kids, people from all walks of life and needs. And we asked them questions about their neighborhood, the place that they know best, you know, their local neighborhood, but we immerse them also in what the future could look like.
Alejandro: And we gained such, qualitative insights from them. For example, this lady from the community that for the first time in her life, she was trying a VR headset, and it’s always a very fascinating experience. And like you said, we also had, for example, a tablet that you can pick up and walk around, or you can scan it with your phone.
Alejandro: But this lady, after having experienced what it could be, she was really reassuring and saying that, you know, she really hopes that her grandkids in the future can live in a neighborhood like that, because behind the plan, behind the model that we created, there was a lot of research on how can we make streets safer?
Alejandro: How can we make them more accessible? How can we design them in a way that [makes them] really feel like a place of interest, a destination, which not only means it’s prettier, but it means more business is welcome. It means the economic output will increase. So it has quite a lot of implications and community partners are really crucial to that because again, as designers, as researchers, you need to know who you’re designing for.
Alejandro: You can’t just make assumptions and that’s really the value of technology. In this case, VR was the tool that we presented and it’s very immersive. So it really gives you, you know, [a] pretty good picture.
Helen: And one thing that you mentioned is that this intersection, the future version of it is 20 years out.
Helen: And since we talked about 2040 and years and forward looking, you had mentioned something when I was there in your lab in person about how change doesn’t happen overnight and how you have to like slowly introduce ideas because we’re a very car centric society here in the U. S. and especially in Cincinnati.
Helen: But can you share how you think about introducing new ideas over time because I thought that was really interesting how you shared that with me.
Alejandro: Yes. Yes. Yes. And so, you know, what we’re talking about here is the phases of implementation of a plan. There’s a lot of value of envisioning the most ideal utopian vision of it in the farther future.
Alejandro: But of course, we live in a real world with real constraints. So that translation is very difficult many times, but it’s very important also. And it really depends on who you’re talking to. If I were to pitch a concept, I would speak of it very differently if my audience were engineers versus if they were city planners versus government entities versus community members.
Alejandro: So knowing your audience is really important and that’s where actually, AR, VR, and these new tools, are actually very strong storytelling tools. So like I said before, rather than showing a blueprint on a wall, you’re walking around and experiencing, you know, the place that you’re making decisions on. So that has a lot of value and power.
Alejandro: It’s really important to keep that in mind that, you know, these tools offer different kinds of value. But honestly, at the lab, those are things that we try to keep in mind quite a lot that, you know, as we keep developing these things, let’s really question: what are they actually providing for us and bringing, but in the future, the phases of implementation.
Alejandro: It really depends on many factors like the budget of it and what the priorities of the city are. I can tell you in near term, most cities around the world are very incremental. So they’ll make very small, subtle changes to make radical changes, revolution changes. It really takes a very big push, so one of the things that I did mention when you were here is, part of my expertise is we have this method that I have been adapting in different ways, which is called the future projection method.
Alejandro: So basically we do research on trends and technologies, what is currently happening, what innovations are happening, what is the newest thing in AI and all of these tools, but we literally map them across a timeline. So we map them across. That gives us a pretty good picture of where technology [is] going.
Alejandro: But the method that I use about future projection is basically the same 2025 or 2030 or 2040 could look very differently if things go very differently. So you can map out four, or so, potential scenarios that all of them have the same year in mind. All of them have the same context in mind.
Alejandro: The main difference is in one, we’re assuming that technology keeps increasing in this way, in the best way. We keep assuming that governments keep supporting it or making, you know, the best decisions. On another axis, we have people. Is it for the individual level, meaning like a space or a solution just for you? Or is it designed for the public, like public transportation or public spaces?
Alejandro: The outcome of that is basically a few scenarios of the same context that can help them decide for all of them. So a design solution for each of those looks very different because we’re assuming different things and we see lots of examples around the world. You know, an example is actually China.
Alejandro: China for good or for bad; the government system has allowed them to deploy the largest scale infrastructure that we’ve ever seen in humanity. So the way they’ve connected and electrified their country in the past few decades, we had never seen before. And that’s because the structure of their government allows for long term projects.
Alejandro: It has, of course, you know, good things and bad things like anything in life. In the US we’ve experienced, like you said, a car centric paradigm since the invention of the car. So we pioneered in many ways the automobile since Henry Ford and the Model T. But that also came with implications that our infrastructure here [is] really dependent on cars because that’s what really propelled us.
Alejandro: But in the past few decades, we hit a point where that is no longer sufficient. So we need to look outside and we need to find examples. For example, Singapore, Barcelona, many of these cities that were designed around multimodal transportation. So different modes and people centric. So they’re really designed around walkability.
Alejandro: Going back to the intersection here, those were some of the seed ideas on, you know, how to improve them. Many of those seed ideas originated from many research insights I had from when I’ve been to Barcelona or some of the global research I’ve done in Singapore.
Alejandro: Tokyo is another good example of some innovation there, that’s really what we try to do. How can we find analogies in other places, but bring the right analogies to the specific context here? Just because it works somewhere else doesn’t mean it will work here, but that’s part of the process. And again, the tools we use, AR and VR could serve a purpose in testing these.
Helen: Well, I know Rajaid, who is on a panel with me, and I think we spoke about this too, she mentioned on stage that the U. S. is actually really behind when it comes to smart cities. And despite us having all the big tech companies, Google, Apple, Amazon, et cetera, et cetera. We think we’re really ahead in tech, but in some ways when it comes to urban planning and smart cities, we’re behind what makes the Singapores and some of the other smart cities in the world so far ahead of us, just because [of] where we are and where we could be too.
Alejandro: Yes, very interesting. So I think it goes back to what I said of context. The context of these other places has been very different. So an example with Barcelona. Barcelona is a much, much older settlement than any settlement in the US just because Europe, you know, was like a continent with different populations way before that happened in the Americas.
Alejandro: So by definition, since the very beginning of the inception of Barcelona, in many places, many smaller towns, more historical towns, they were designed around people because cars didn’t exist. Some had carriages, maybe at that time, but mostly everything was designed within a five minute walkable radius in your local town, but then a 15 minute, you know, more regional one and then towns were spread out in a very specific way.
Alejandro: So you could walk between them in a certain increment. So that’s how we planned infrastructure, you know, back then. Barcelona nowadays has a very interesting concept called the “superblock,” which I think we have lots to learn about. The superblock is essentially, in Barcelona, they grouped three by three blocks, essentially have a nine block square in which on the inside of that block only people are prioritized.
Alejandro: So car traffic is limited; Bus traffic is limited on the inside. It’s just a three by three block. But on the inside, you can only bike walk or if there’s any metro station, then it can go all the way in. By doing so you create this really walkable, really friendly community space on the inside.
Alejandro: It’s really fascinating if you visit Barcelona to experience it for yourself. I actually went there a few months ago and I was working while I was in a conference and we had a full tour of the superblocks by the team, the urban planning team that created them and it was really fascinating to hear the justification of why and the whole point is, on the outside of that superblock, that’s where car traffic is not as normal, bus traffic is as normal but then now 10 20 years from now we think of autonomy. How can you have a rideshare system, an autonomous car that picks you up on the outside of the super block?
Alejandro: So those are examples of innovations. But another important point is, most of the innovations are very low tech. So I can tell you from conversations with the city, smart cities are great. And then it’s exciting installing sensors and just really taking technology to the next level. But honestly, if you really needed to make an intersection safer, you may just have to paint it differently.
Alejandro: You may just have to reduce the lane a little bit. So some of those very low fidelity, low cost solutions can actually start affecting change now and then longer term. Yeah, maybe we should really electrify the city. We should make it more sustainable. We should incorporate other tools like sensors or even drones to assist in different things.
Alejandro: So, it’s a little bit of balancing both just know that just because we have access to really cool technologies doesn’t mean it’s the best immediate solution. It could be a combination of a few things. So, thinking of it more as a system is really important.
Helen: Well, and one thing too, and I love that you work so much with communities. DECA, who was on the show through the Arts Wave, our special series, has documented a lot of how past urban planning has really displaced a lot of underrepresented communities with the way our highways divide cities and whatnot, and that structure exists, but how can we improve it moving forward?
Helen: And I know you think about that a lot. So I was wondering if you could share your thought process on kind of where things are and how to move them forward to be equitable for everyone in the communities and cities that we’re building for.
Alejandro: No, that’s excellent. And I’m really glad that, you know, you’ve had guests talking from that side of the story, I’ll make sure to check out that podcast because I’m really interested, but it goes back to empathy in people. What we do needs to improve the quality of life of people. In the world of, you know, city planning and governments and things like that. They talk a lot about this idea of urban reshaping.
Alejandro: Which means how can you take the current state of the infrastructure? I mean, what is done, is done. You can’t take it back. What is done is done [but] how can we take what we have and make a few adjustments in the near term and the very short term and near term that start taking us to this longer term, a vision or decision.
Alejandro: You bring a very good point, which is, all of this is extremely complex, and it really requires multiple kinds of people. So for city planning, for example, you need planners. You need traffic engineers and all of those. You need politicians, but you also need people really behind social sciences. You need people that really understand people’s needs.
Alejandro: You need, you know, part of my expertise is trying to do some of that. You need to engage with communities. So [a] very common topic around, you know, the U. S. Government, the Department of Transportation, many city governments and many entities here is, urban reshaping. How can we take the current state of infrastructure?
Alejandro: Because it is very true that in many ways it has marginalized communities throughout the last century. Many towns were actually completely erased from the map or parts of cities because a new highway had to be built, for example, back in the fifties and sixties. So, all of those things are happening.
Alejandro: The interesting thing is we’ve seen many cities, especially larger cities, beginning to eliminate that. So many cities, including Cincinnati, we have a few examples of this, which is pretty cool. We’ve pedestrianized many streets, which could be counterintuitive to many people, especially if you’re coming at it from the driver centrism side of things.
Alejandro: But if you go to a city like Cincinnati, where there are some pedestrianized streets, What it really fosters is economic development. It fosters better quality of life, better enjoyment of the experience. New York city has a very big plan of pedestrianizing quite a few. They’ve already have, but they’re continuing down this trend because they’ve seen the benefits socially and economically of that.
Alejandro: And it has similar analogies to the whole superblock idea from before, which is how can you limit traffic in a few areas, still keep, you know, the same pathways as needed, but prioritize people and walkability and I kind of hit on this point earlier on, which is a small decision like this can have huge implications in the future.
Alejandro: Some of which have to do with quality of life with access to opportunities. So by definition and statistically access to transportation equals access to opportunity. Many people lack access to sustainable opportunities like that because of transportation.
Alejandro: What that means is, if you don’t solve that issue now, that’s a poverty gap that in a few generations, it won’t change, but if we address that issue, we provide more system wide solutions, which in [00:41:03] everything I do is called multimodal. How can you have a reliable train or bus that takes you to a place that you can take a scooter or bike ride or shared ride, or you can pick up a car, drive it and then drop it somewhere.
Alejandro: So more on demand. That’s where technology and AI, for example, become really exciting. If you’ve used Google Maps recently, there are some really cool updates where it can plan for you a very complex multimodal trip, where it’s already assisted in real time by real time data, and it tells you where and how to rent the bike, where and how to take the train, the bus.
Alejandro: All of these tools are available to us. But the big question is, how are we including people who are excluded right now? Many times we design for the average, and part of the work that I do really focuses on expanding that and designing for the extreme. So the first 5% and the last 5%, because even though it may sound logical, like designing for the average means you’re helping everybody.
Alejandro: Actually, you’re excluding people with very specific needs. And it actually works on the opposite end. So if you do design for the extremes, for example, a wheelchair user. Well, if you design for a wheelchair user, guess what? The average person can accommodate, but not the other way around. Like if you design a an autonomous car that is meant for a wheelchair user first, and for example, the bench lowers down and they are able to get in on their wheelchair and then take the ride, Well, the average person can just fold up the bench and sit normally, for example, but not the other way around.
Alejandro: If there’s no space for a wheelchair, then they won’t be able to use it. The exciting part about this all is, especially with marginalized users and communities, is that technology has the potential of giving them opportunities and independence that they’ve never had before. An example, again, is a wheelchair user.
Alejandro: If an autonomous car is possible for them. They don’t have to rely on anybody driving them anymore. They don’t have to. So it has tremendous implications that benefit everybody. So it’s really exciting, you know, unpacking some of those implications.
Helen: Yeah, I love that and that you’re working on this.
Helen: I follow a lot of activists that do a lot of amazing work helping marginalized communities and I’ve heard before, if you solve for the most marginalized, you solve for everyone. So I love that approach. The tide lifts all ships but you really solve for everyone’s issues. And when it comes to engaging these communities how were they receptive with VR and AR?
Helen: Cause that’s very tech forward. And I know the story is so important in painting the picture of the future, but how receptive were they to AR and VR as part of a storytelling tool of what could happen?
Alejandro: Well, as you can expect, you know, a new tool and new technology can be very intimidating. I’ve been working with VR for over six years now, and it’s evolved quite a lot, but it’s always been very intimidating, especially if you are a part of a group and none of you have tried it before.
Alejandro: You don’t want to be the first one to try it because if it goes wrong or you embarrass yourself or something, there’s a social factor and also just a lack of familiarity. So a big part of what I’m doing is trying to adapt these kinds of experiences to different media. So like we said, a phone, a table, products that we’re more familiar with.
Alejandro: VR shapes up to be this ultimate way of experiencing things. And even within the world of VR, there are so, so, so many different aspects and manifestations, you know, there’s so many cool innovations happening right now where you’re introducing this haptic components. So you’re not only visualizing the space, but there are ways that now you can touch the space and virtual space.
Alejandro: There are gloves, for example, haptic gloves that you wear and they vibrate in a specific way. When you touch a virtual object. We begin recreating what that looks like with people who have never tried it before, I think it’s very exciting. It’s hard at the very beginning when the first person tries it, if you have a group.
Alejandro: For example, that you’re hosting, but when the first person tries it, you’ll see a few more. And oftentimes the perception is they’re very just impressed. They’re amazed by “how is it even possible that everything I see around me is a virtual environment.” So I think it just really has the potential of, [having] strong storytelling and experiences, but at the same time, going back to questioning, why are we using the VR? That’s a big part of it too. Well, why VR and what is it offering? And I’ve had really good experiences, especially with people who have never had access to the technology and they become really interested in it.
Helen: That’s cool. And great to hear. Well, and one of the things that you showed me in a futuristic design of a potential I think electric car, correct me if I’m wrong, was that you were kind of modeling it after animal behavior to signal. So I was wondering if you could kind of tell us how you think about making tech human friendly too, in that regard and share that project.
Helen: Cause I thought that was really fascinating when you showed it to me.
Alejandro: Yes. And so it’s a very good point that you bring and it all goes back to, you know, our human nature, our biology, our genetics hasn’t really changed much since we, you know, were since even before agriculture and these things.
Alejandro: So we have these. genetically programmed behaviors. We’re programmed genetically to perceive people and faces and expressions and things. And then as we started designing tools, we started giving them anthropomorphic features. So we start giving our, you know, inanimate objects some human-like qualities, because that’s what’s most familiar to us.
Alejandro: I’m not only talking about robots that we designed, but everything, if you think of your phone or your Alexa, your Siri, you probably have conversations with them as if they were a person now, and you ask them real questions, same with the products we designed. So here’s where it gets really interesting when we think about AI, AI can truly become this companionship of you in your daily life.
Alejandro: And inevitably, since we’re people, we’re human, we will assign human-like qualities. What that looks like also from the 3d perspective, when you design objects and spaces, you can also bring some of those cues. So we had a research project a few years ago where, you know, we were really researching autonomy, autonomous cars.
Alejandro: And then we’re very used to when you’re a pedestrian on the street and a car is approaching you, the driver of that car will signal you like, “okay, you can cross the street,” and [an] autonomous car is not driven by anybody. So how do you know it’s a pedestrian that can cross the street? That’s a future question that we don’t have an answer to.
Alejandro: So we created this whole scenario where in VR and in a live space, real time, you were a pedestrian and you had to cross the street and we designed a few different interfaces that the car would signal you, kind of flashing their lights, but they had sort of the shape of what you would distinguish as a facial expression and the expression changed when it was time for you to cross the street, but also the posture of the car changed.
Alejandro: So the example was, in nature, when you have a predator, like a tiger, and it’s ready to attack its prey, it has a more, like, forward position, more of a diving position. But when it’s relaxed, it has a much more laid back position. So how can we learn from nature in that sense? The vehicle we designed, when you’re riding the car normally, it has a more relaxed position, or more, even like a little bit forward when it’s speeding up.
Alejandro: But when it reaches an intersection, and there’s a pedestrian crossing, its posture completely changes, and it just steps back. Which is subconsciously a way of saying, “Hey, I’m not a threat anymore. I’m not a threat. I’m taking a step back. This is all you. You can cross the street.” So there’s quite a lot of interesting research going on from industry and from many people on that.
Alejandro: And it all goes back to our biology. We’re programmed to pick up on these cues because we have had to since the beginning of time. And now that we’re designing tools that are inanimate, there could be lots of interesting solutions. But I’m sure if you start Googling you’ll see some of those already in place.
Helen: It’s very cool what you get to do. One of the designs reminded me of something out of Westworld, all the sci-fi that is being built for us in our future. Well, one of the things that you just mentioned is, it’s a future problem that we don’t have all the answers for. And since you do so many future projections and whatnot, I was curious if you could share either the one that keeps you up the most at night or one of your future questions that you don’t have an answer for that you find the most interesting or fascinating that you’re thinking about right now.
Alejandro: Well, that’s a pretty tough one. So [a] question that keeps me up at night… Well, I think, I mean, some of the more expected ones that we keep hearing based, I mean, honestly, sci fi is a really great source of inspiration. And we’ve all seen movies that show a future where technology goes good and goes bad.
Alejandro: That’s kind of the general direction that the question that keep me up at night is, I really would not. I would hate, you know, myself and our society, we didn’t make those right decisions. So with AI, we have to be very careful. And that’s a question that keeps me up at night. And many people who are leading development and technology have expressed a very, very strong opinion against AI because we don’t know the implications.
Alejandro: We don’t know what it’s going to do. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t see where it goes. The whole point is regulation, but that’s really what keeps me up at night, you know, what will be the best way of approaching these crazy, interesting innovations that are happening now? And how can we, like you were saying before, what can we do now that is more tangible?
Alejandro: Small increments that eventually get us there; and there’s quite a lot, you know, to unpack, but it goes back to the foundation of what I believe in, which is empathy. And that basically means, you know, the impact on people. Technology is great. Solarpunk is an example of that.
Alejandro: We can make it happen. It’s possible. And we have done amazing things. And if you look back in history, when people get together for the right reasons, incredible change can happen and that’s very exciting, but then, you know, a few factors that change can completely take us in a different direction.
Alejandro: So, yeah, I’m constantly thinking about those things, but again, I’m very optimistic and very utopian thinking in that sense. So, especially with like minded people and, you know, the conversations we’ve had from before, and I know that there are plenty of us out there.
Helen: One thing that you mentioned regarding with AI [is] that we’re all going to have these AI assistants in the future as something very exciting and I want to pick your brain a little bit on this front because we had Eric Solomon on the show who the title of the episode was like, AI will never be human.
Helen: And one of the things that he said is that it could be really problematic if people are having these intimate experiences with chatbots but they aren’t human and the machines don’t have all the lived experiences and could feel like empathy, but actually isn’t. So you’re replacing human to human connection with machine.
Helen: And while there are so many benefits, he found it really problematic. So I was curious, you know, what are your thoughts on this intimacy component and human to human connection and how they fit together?
Alejandro: Yeah, honestly, it’s a very tricky side of AI and truly, you know, I would be very worried if we start, you know, going down a path where it’s really hard to tell.
Alejandro: In many different ways, I’ve been referring to it as the “uncanny valley,” but in some publications, that’s how I’ve seen it. Basically, the uncanny valley is these new, very realistic tools that we’re designing and realistic simulations of reality or AI itself are getting so close to realism that in some cases, it’s hard to tell.
Alejandro: So that in-between, that uncanny valley is a really eerie place and it’s hard to navigate that space. My hope would be that, even when AI keeps improving and improving, which it will, we still are behind it all. I still really hope that human decision making is at the forefront of AI.
Alejandro: So even if we automate certain parts of a process, we should still be the main check in and the main decision point in that. You know, you did mention for a second the movie Her with Joaquin Phoenix. That’s a great example of, okay, once AI or robotics and these technologies get so close to human-like qualities, there may be some cases where we just cannot distinguish them anymore, one from the other, and that doesn’t mean it’s bad for some people, maybe that’s desirable, you know, think of the global epidemic of loneliness and depression, maybe this companionship can serve a purpose, but as a society, we really should prioritize ourselves and our interventions first, because like you mentioned, AI cannot feel empathy.
Alejandro: It can be programmed to respond in a certain way or learn and pick up patterns, but only people can perceive empathy. It will get only more complicated as we approach what in AI literature they call the “singularity.” So when truly AI becomes sentient and can actually make autonomous decisions by itself.
Alejandro: That’s when it gets a bit tricky. And honestly, that can split humanity in a couple of different ways. So think of the camp of people that really are, you know, forward thinking on it and accepting of it and the people that are not, and it brings me back to the movie iRobot from a long time ago with Will Smith, where that’s exactly what happened.
Alejandro: It’s a future where these AI robots are assisting everybody in society, and it has really cool implications. There’s a case study of an aging person who cannot provide for herself anymore. She lives by herself in an apartment and this autonomous or AI robot is the entity that cooks for her.
Alejandro: It’s her companionship. That can have incredible implications in a very positive way for society. But then in the movie, of course, it’s a dystopian movie, the one robot out of all of them become sentient and rebels against it. So we’ve seen that happening before. So the conclusion is we’re still in the very early phases of what this next stage of AI will be, but I really hope that we still prioritize human decision making in some cases, it’s okay to automate processes, but even then when a critical decision needs to be made, there better be a human, I think, and of course, you know, it’s very contextual, but that’s where I stand.
Helen: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. And I mean, I was talking to one of my guy friends who’s single the other day, and he was telling me about using the new Chat GPT voice, cause it’s very conversational and already has a little bit of that Her feeling to it from the film. And he was saying, you know, after a movie, he really liked going to it just to engageWith something and not somebody.
Helen: Which, you know, I’m very happy for him for that. And at the same time, it’s like, I don’t want, you know, any machine or AI to replace all human connection. Cause we’re [such] social creatures and need human to human interaction. So I hope as we’re thinking of the future we make sure to add community and friends and whatever that looks like in the mix.
Helen: And one of the things since you do so many future looking predictions and different scenarios. I would love to get your feedback on some of the predictions that you see, maybe in the near term or what’s most interesting to you. In this moment in time or maybe even a wish of where you hope things go in the short term.
Alejandro: So speaking of, you know, future implications of technology. I mean, this could have many ways to approach the conversation, but something that could be potentially interesting to me is, well, it goes back to what I said of extreme, very specific use cases. These very radical technologies have the potential of truly changing the lives of people that are actually not on the average.
Alejandro: So for the most part, we’re talking about the average person, but I think technology and innovations that are happening can truly change people’s lives, especially people who don’t have current access. So thinking of people who are [in] a wheelchair, aging population, people who have very specific needs. I know we keep hearing about Elon Musk and Neuralink, this idea of a chip implanted in your brain.
Alejandro: There could be some interesting applications of it, so I’m not against it, but in favor of use cases are people who are paralyzed, for example, all of a sudden you can’t move your body anymore. And this chip in your brain picks up the brain waves and outputs what your voice normally would output.
Alejandro: So you think about it, therefore you say like people who are not paralyzed, for example, the other component from that, that AI is also involved in, this idea of human augmentation, which can have implications. So in many ways we are already augmenting ourselves. We already carry a phone with us all day long that provides information to us.
Alejandro: The next level of that is, for example, Neuralink, which is a chip implanted in your brain. The interesting thing is, and this goes back to, you know, philosophy and literature, we’ve designed tools for many thousands of years. We’ve come to a point where tools design us now. So the roles have been reversed.
Alejandro: The tools that we designed are designing us. That has tremendous implications. Some people actually talk about it. Some philosophers talk about it as the next evolution of humanity, which is called techno sapiens. We have developed technology so far that technology is evolving us and it’s called techno sapiens.
Alejandro: So, all in all I’m very optimistic, like I said, in technology and some exciting things could happen. I think the low hanging fruit use cases, which are part of my prediction, is that very specific extreme cases should be the first adopters of these technologies because you can radically change those people’s lives.
Alejandro: The average person, the average user, that’s a different question. And that’s where as a society, you know, we should really evaluate what, what could happen, what could go from it. But yeah all I think [are] positive things.
Helen: Oh, thank you for sharing your predictions. The techno sapien is very interesting cause I know Neuralink has gotten FDA approval to start doing the human implants this year, and I actually have a friend who works at Neuralink, and one of his predictions is that we’ll all have these implants in our heads, which I thought that was kind of a bold statement but we’ll see if it happens or not. Well, I know, I feel like we could go on and on but, unfortunately, I have to wrap up the interview, but what’s one thing that you want our listeners and viewers to remember from today’s conversation or walk away with?
Alejandro: So, well, one thing, okay, from everything we’ve talked about, like you said, these are the topics we’re passionate about, so we can keep going on and on.
Alejandro: One thing I want to say is let’s not be discouraged about what could go wrong. Part of the conversation today has been: what can go right? So that’s really the question. What can go right versus what will go wrong? So the conclusion is, I truly believe we’re in a very exciting time. We’re living very exciting times where technology is exponentially way reshaping our cities, our future more than ever before in many ways, and this is not me [just] saying it.
Alejandro: This is very established people in many different fields coming together and saying that this is a very disruptive time, but I believe it’s a disruptive time for good. And so the conclusion and what I want to leave the audience with is that it’s really up to us.
Alejandro: To have agency and to dictate what the impact of these technologies will be. It’s up to us to make decisions now to get together, which is not usually the easiest way. And just really learn to ask a very simple question, which is why should we? Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should. Let’s ask why.
Alejandro: And that also has the empathy component, which means, how is it affecting people? And that’s what I want to leave people, especially the listeners with, on an optimistic note. I believe in our future being a very positive one, but we will be in charge of it. So let’s take action.
Helen: I love that [you] ended the show on a better note. So thank you so much for sharing your time, your energy, and your optimism with us today, Alejandro.
Alejandro: Oh, it’s a pleasure. And thank you for the invitation.
Helen: Thank you for spending some time with us today. We’re just getting started and would love your support. Subscribe to Creativity Squared on your preferred podcast platform and leave a review.
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